Moderators: kieran, jd, Tanglerat, teacher
teacher wrote:Tanglerat wrote:Care to share with us the name of this uninterested party?
Better not. It was a voice mail and I deleted it.
happyguy73 wrote:guys
just a short comment which may be worthless, but it might be worth while contacting the National and Regional Game Council (NARGC) to seek advice on how to adress such 'proposals' as they have had very successful resolutions to other similarly ill thought out proposals which would have affected the shooting community.
They are a very well represented body which have tackled many issues over the years and have much experience.
I understand that not all people who fish participate in shooting sports but it is good to keep in mind that there is safety in numbers and numbers are a stronger voice.
many fishing clubs contain members who also participate in shooting sports and therefore it make sense to come together in times of need and give support to protecting our respective sporting choices.
its just a thought,
if anyone wants direct contact details please PM me.
If my post is deemed inappropriate then I would prefer no comments than derogative ones :D
thank you
slowarm wrote:I think this has the scent of something worthwhile. I still wondering if we can get some other benefits from this, for example. protections for fish nurseries into this.
happyguy73 wrote:guys
just a short comment which may be worthless, but it might be worth while contacting the National and Regional Game Council (NARGC) to seek advice on how to adress such 'proposals' as they have had very successful resolutions to other similarly ill thought out proposals which would have affected the shooting community.
They are a very well represented body which have tackled many issues over the years and have much experience.
I understand that not all people who fish participate in shooting sports but it is good to keep in mind that there is safety in numbers and numbers are a stronger voice.
many fishing clubs contain members who also participate in shooting sports and therefore it make sense to come together in times of need and give support to protecting our respective sporting choices.
its just a thought,
if anyone wants direct contact details please PM me.
If my post is deemed inappropriate then I would prefer no comments than derogative ones :D
thank you
To All Concerned,
It is with total and utter shock and dismay that we as a Dublin based Sea Angling Club have learned of your proposed ban on angling from ALL shorelines in the Dun Laoghaire Rathdown area.
We have fished this area for many years and have never had any problems with swimmers or other beach users and as a matter of fact people seem to take a great interest in what we are doing and often stop to have a chat with us.
We also actively encourage young people both male and female to take up fishing as a sport and a pastime and have on many, many occasions brought them to the likes of Killiney beach to get them started. We have held fun fishing days during the Christmas holidays where all that matters is that the children enjoy themselves and go home happy at the end of the day. To deny this to our young people is a great miscarriage of justice. Fishing from these shorelines is something that our parents and grand parents have done for many years and to be denied an opportunity of passing on our knowledge to our younger generation is totally unbelievable.
It is interesting to note that the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources as well as the Eastern Regional Fisheries Board promote fishing along this area (as well as other areas) in their latest "Ireland's East Coast" fishing guides which are handed out all major maritime events, why then do you propose to oppose this.
We would like it to be known that we oppose this proposed ban totally and intend to object to its introduction, we have many members of voting age at present and as many again, young people who will not forget what you are trying to do.
RESPONSE TO DRAFT BEACH BYE-LAWS
Sea-angling is one of the most popular participation sports in Ireland. Ireland is a major destination for sea-angling tourists, and many of our beaches are internationally-renowned fishing areas.
There is no demand from other beach/coast-users for any restriction of sea-angling, and there is no requirement whatsoever for any such restriction.
Sea-anglers fish from all parts of the coastline, including beaches, rocky coastlines, and man-made structures. Sea-anglers utilise these areas at all times, in all climates, and at all stages of the tide cycle.
The Irish climate means that the coast/beaches are relatively rarely utilised for swimming. Any ban on sea-angling would lead to the bizarre situation where anglers were banned from waters, where, for the vast majority of the year, summer and winter, there is no human activity in the water whatsoever.
Sea-anglers rarely have any difficulty with any other beach/coast user, since significant human activity in the water will cause fish to move away from such an area. Unlike some other beach users (eg. dog-walkers/jet-ski riders) there is no significant ‘downside’ for other beach/coast users to sea-angling on any part of the coast.
Sea-anglers are the only beach/coast users who tend to be constantly watching the water, and far from being a threat to swimmers, contribute significantly to swimmer-safety by being in a position to spot swimmers in difficulty before other beach/coast users have done so.
Any restriction on sea-angling would appear to be not only unnecessary, but detrimental to the safety of other beach/coast users. Should the Council still feel that some restriction is necessary, a simple requirement that anglers do not fish within 50 metres of sunbathers/swimmers would seem to cover all possible eventualities.
Sea-angling is a long-standing, traditional pastime in working-class areas of Dublin and Dun Laoghaire. The coast of Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown is almost inevitably where young people from disadvantaged areas have their first experience of sea-angling. This should be encouraged, rather than restricted. A ban on sea-angling in the Dublin area would, for young people or people without private transport, effectively totally ban them from engaging in their chosen pastime.
Fixing What Isn’t Broken
There are categories of beach-user who may come into conflict with other beach-users. Typical examples may be jet-ski riders, who can create noise pollution and may present a real hazard to swimmers, or dog-walkers, whose animals may foul the beach and otherwise disturb bathers and sunbathers. Sea-anglers are simply not one of these categories. Neither I, nor my angling colleagues, seem to be aware of even a single serious accident involving shore sea-angling causing harm to any third party. We presume that there must have been some complaint about sea-angling to have provoked this proposal, but we are unaware of any demand whatsoever from other beach-users for sea-angling to be restricted. In short, there is no requirement for this proposal which would constitute a massive attack on the pastime, passion, and personal freedom of sea-anglers. It claims to address a problem which simply doesn’t exist. On the other hand, any attempt to implement such a restriction would create untold problems for anglers, authorities, and other beach users.
Swimmers and Angling Tackle Simply Don’t Meet
The reality of sea-angling is that, in the rare instances where the weather permits any swimmers in the water, when anglers arrive on a beach they immediately move to a place that is free of swimmers, surfers or any other human activity in the water. Generally, human activity in the water disturbs fish and anglers have no interest in fishing in such areas. Only in the rarest cases, where there is a very limited area where fish congregate and which is also particularly suitable for swimming, is there any potential for conflict between swimmers and anglers. There is no such area in the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown area. Sea-anglers also tend to use the beach/coast in dull conditions, cool conditions, rough conditions, dusk, dawn and night-time, all times where there are unlikely to be any people in the water. Nor does sea-angling tackle drift at all. It is held on the seabed with a lead weight, or in the case of spinning, retrieved directly to the angler. (see Background note on Types of Sea Angling) Any attempt to restrict angling by time, or time of the year, would cause anglers to be banned from beaches/coastline where, for the vast majority of the time, there would not be a single person anywhere in the water.
Sea-Anglers Are a Major Contribution Beach to Safety
Most beach-users tend to be concentrate on their own activity, their attention focussed on the immediate area around them. Uniquely, sea-anglers are not, and that represents a major contribution to beach safety. Sea-anglers are constantly watching the sea, and as such, are likely to spot other beach users in trouble before any other type of beach user.
In dull or inclement weather, early in the day or late at night, beaches are primarily used for angling and walking. But beaches can be lonely places for walkers. A couple of anglers dotted along a beach constitute some other human presence and a reassurance for walkers who might feel uncomfortable walking along an utterly deserted beach at such a time.
Sea-Angling is a Major Tourist Activity
Sea-angling in Ireland is a major attraction for foreign anglers, primarily from Britain, but also from further afield. Many of our beaches are internationally-renowned. In addition to the dedicated sea-angling tourist, the prospect of some casual sea-angling is also an immense attraction for general tourists.
Sea-Angling is Environmentally Neutral
Shore sea-angling creates no visual intrusion (in fact, the sight of a sea- angler on a deserted beach might even add to the scene), it creates no noise pollution (sea anglers are rarely the type of beach-user who shout, scream, or play music), and it creates less litter than almost any other beach use (apart from being generally more litter-conscious than most, sea-anglers have the additional concern of the effect that litter has on marine life). Nor do sea anglers use dune areas, or other sensitive areas of beaches/coastline.
Personal Freedom
While sea-anglers might be loathe to make such high-minded arguments, personal freedoms are important, and should only be restricted where clearly necessary in the common good. There is no ‘common good’ argument for restricting sea-angling, and as such, any such restrictions would constitute an entirely unjustified attack on personal freedom.
This is a Political Issue
Anglers are passionate, some might say obsessive, about their sport. It is a major part of our lives. We talk about it constantly, we join clubs, when we are not doing it, we are thinking about doing it or looking forward to doing it. Up to now, there has never been any requirement that we would vote on the basis of angling issues. But there is absolutely no doubt that any attempt to restrict anglers from engaging in the pastime that we love will lead us to vote on the basis of this, most important, angling issue.
Designating Sea-Angling Areas Is Not Possible
Areas where there may be fish, or are known to be fish, are known to sea-anglers as ‘marks’. Some are on rocky coastline (for instance near Whiterock Beach), others are on beaches (eg parts of Killiney Beach, near Blackrock) and still more near harbours etc. (Parts of Dun Laoghaire Harbour).
But fish are unpredictable creatures. They move. A food source may disappear in one place and a new one appear in another. Sandbanks shift constantly. As the fish move, so do the marks. And the sea-anglers. So designating appropriate fishing areas is impossible, even if the massive wealth of sea-angling expertise necessary to do so existed within Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council.
What Would be the Result if this Ban Went Ahead?
If this ban went ahead, many of the most serious sea-anglers with enough time and money would simply desert the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown area, which would not be a benefit to anyone, and would be detrimental, to varying degrees, to tackle shops, outdoor shops, cafes, petrol stations, newsagents etc.
But many anglers would not. Although no-one could condone breaking beach bye-laws, there is no doubt that many anglers would do so, feeling that an overwhelming and unjustified attack on their personal freedoms had taken place. That would lead to a requirement for a significant policing operation by the Council, constant conflict between anglers and the Council, and a general disturbance of the peace of the beaches and the coastline.
There is no need for any such conflict. This ban is unnecessary and detrimental to all beach/coast users.
Are There Regulations that Might Be Acceptable to All Beach/Coast Users?
Since there is no problem, no solution and no regulations are necessary. If, however, the Council still feels that some regulation is necessary, it is important to note that the key objection of anglers to this proposal is the idea of a blanket ban to which the Council might then, if and where it chose, grant exceptions.
If there were particular, very limited, non-beach areas where space was restricted and which were heavily-utilised by swimmers, where the Council felt it was necessary to ban angling, many anglers might find that acceptable. (There seems to be only one such area in the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown area, and that would, of course, be the 40-foot bathing Place.)
If the Council also wanted to place a general onus on anglers to keep away from swimmers/people in the water, that might also be acceptable to many anglers. A simple requirement in the bye-laws that anglers do not fish within 50 metres of any swimmers/sunbathers would seem to be more than adequate to do so.
Conclusion:
There is no demand or requirement for any restriction of sea-angling in the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown area. I, and my angling colleagues, would ask, therefore, that no such restriction be included in the bye-laws.
Background to types of sea-angling on our coastline:
Different types of angling take place on different parts of the coast, depending on the type of coastline involved. None present any significant safety risk to other beach users.
Beaches: Sea anglers on beaches tend to use one of two types of fishing.
Ground-fishing: The angler casts directly out to sea from the beach. The hook and bait lands in the sea and is held in place on the seabed by a lead weight. Apart from the fact that the hook is on the seabed, far from the surface, anglers particularly avoid fishing using this method near swimmers since any human activity near the bait will cause fish to move away from it. The baits also tend to be considerably further out to sea than the typical recreational swimmers.
Spinning: This involves a shorter cast using a lure (artificial bait of some type with incorporated hook) and the angler immediately reeling it back in, in a direct line to himself/herself. (This causes the lure to appear more realistic)
Rocky coastline:
Feathering: Similar to spinning, except the lure is replaced with a set of feather-type lures, each with hook incorporated.
Ground-fishing and spinning are also commonly carried out on rocky parts of the coastline.
Man-made Structures (Harbour/Piers etc):
Float-fishing: The bait and hook are cast out only a short distance (often less than 10 metres). The bait is held down in mid-water by a light weight, and prevented from sinking by a float. This is rarely used in places where there may be swimmers, but the hook is deep in the water and a swimmer would have to be almost on top of an angler to have any chance of coming near it. Ground fishing, spinning, and feathering, also take place from man-made structures.
If the Council also wanted to place a general onus on anglers to keep away from swimmers/people in the water, that might also be acceptable to many anglers. A simple requirement in the bye-laws that anglers do not fish within 50 metres of any swimmers/sunbathers would seem to be more than adequate to do so.
jd wrote:Donogh said I could reproduce his submission if I thought it would be helpful to others.
Any restriction on sea-angling would appear to be not only unnecessary, but detrimental to the safety of other beach/coast users. Should the Council still feel that some restriction is necessary, a simple requirement that anglers do not fish within 50 metres of sunbathers/swimmers would seem to cover all possible eventualities.
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Since there is no problem, no solution and no regulations are necessary. If, however, the Council still feels that some regulation is necessary, it is important to note that the key objection of anglers to this proposal is the idea of a blanket ban to which the Council might then, if and where it chose, grant exceptions.
If there were particular, very limited, non-beach areas where space was restricted and which were heavily-utilised by swimmers, where the Council felt it was necessary to ban angling, many anglers might find that acceptable. (There seems to be only one such area in the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown area, and that would, of course, be the 40-foot bathing Place.)
If the Council also wanted to place a general onus on anglers to keep away from swimmers/people in the water, that might also be acceptable to many anglers. A simple requirement in the bye-laws that anglers do not fish within 50 metres of any swimmers/sunbathers would seem to be more than adequate to do so.
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