c&r f&r debate

[PaddyB]

Paddy B said: " Im sure the Bass is really appreacitive of the fact that it has just been released by a caring angler who has just ripped a treble hook out of its mouth."

Does the fact that angling is catching fishes and those fishes stress and suffer from a certainly painful sting by the hooks, means we need to kill them ? I don't think so, in most of the cases fishes are hooked up in part of their mouths were it's essentially bones and they recover very, very well.

.

Oh dear jebus, talk about missing the point

[eric]

a few good points raised on both sides. i am 100% 'do whatever the hell i want'. i catch fish, i kill the ones i want for bait and for food. i dont really dig the whole fresh fish thing but my family and neighbours love it. im more than obliging to provide them with a fish or two when i catch one. thats my way.

i used to be 100% c&r but one day it suddenley occured to me that its probably the most hypocrititcal thing do to in sea angling. for anyone out there who releases every fish they catch and assumes they swim off like little happy campers they need to recieve a serious wake up call. eyesreilly, although i hold nothing against you personaly, i think your an a1 guy and all that:wink: you fish a lot of marks which hold a lot of small fish. greystones, wicklow, bray etc.... you catch a lot of small fish. at a conservitive estimate i'd say 90% of your mini codling,whiting,coalie,flounder and dab catch end up swimming with the fishes. small fish, bar wrasse,dogs,the odd flat etc... dont do well to being dragged out of the sea, handled, unhooked and thrown back . ?? just an observation.

[eyesreilly]

a few good points raised on both sides. i am 100% 'do whatever the hell i want'. i catch fish, i kill the ones i want for bait and for food. i dont really dig the whole fresh fish thing but my family and neighbours love it. im more than obliging to provide them with a fish or two when i catch one. thats my way.
i used to be 100% c&r but one day it suddenley occured to me that its probably the most hypocrititcal thing do to in sea angling. for anyone out there who releases every fish they catch and assumes they swim off like little happy campers they need to recieve a serious wake up call. eyesreilly, although i hold nothing against you personaly, i think your an a1 guy and all that:wink: you fish a lot of marks which hold a lot of small fish. greystones, wicklow, bray etc.... you catch a lot of small fish. at a conservitive estimate i'd say 90% of your mini codling,whiting,coalie,flounder and dab catch end up swimming with the fishes. small fish, bar wrasse,dogs,the odd flat etc... dont do well to being dragged out of the sea, handled, unhooked and thrown back . ?? just an observation.

Ouch!! Good job i'm not easily offended Eric Dont think i was ever 100%,a 'do whatever the hell i want', type of guy,even when i was your tender age. Let me try to deal with your points;
1.

i dont really dig the whole fresh fish thing but my family and neighbours love it. im more than obliging to provide them with a fish or two when i catch one. thats my way.

Fair play to you
2.

i think your an a1 guy and all that:wink:

Youre right there
3.

i used to be 100% c&r but one day it suddenley occured to me that its probably the most hypocrititcal thing do to in sea angling. for anyone out there who releases every fish they catch and assumes they swim off like little happy campers they need to recieve a serious wake up call.

That was some turnaround for one day A road to Damascus moment.
4.

you fish a lot of marks which hold a lot of small fish. greystones, wicklow, bray etc.... you catch a lot of small fish. at a conservitive estimate i'd say 90% of your mini codling,whiting,coalie,flounder and dab catch end up swimming with the fishes.

I fish marks that i know, sorry about that ,I have a job, luckily enough ,which means I am on call a lot of the time and may have to pack up and go at short notice, plus i'm on a budget and have others to think about, unlike yourself. Youre probably wrong, i'd say about 95% end up happy little campers back where they belong swimming with the other fishies.(What am i doing explaining myself to a fresh kid )
Seriously, whats your point Eric,,do you want me to stop fishing or just stop posting reports.This wasnt my post I'm not 100% catch and release I 've absolutely no problem with people keeping fish for the table, but when they take practically the whole resident population from a mark I think theres something wrong there I've tried to catch big fish ,and believe it or not ,i've had a small bit of success this year, a few bass, some nice smoothies, some edible size flounder and whiting,nice gurnards, why i've even caught a ling on Wicklow pier and had guys ask me how i did it(i'm an honest type or guy (as distinct from a do 100% what i want type ) so i told them it was just a fluke, i know my limitations To end, i dont know why youre picking on me, but i can take it, and to end on a positive,,,,,,if your picking on me some other poor guy is being saved from your smart comments, cheers
Dave

[eric]

ok, my main point was, despite the fact people preach 100% they are infact hypocrits.your example was a simple case study. to assume 95% of your fish return alive is ignorance. small flounder and dabs swim off after being deep hooked, but they will almost certainly die as a result of these injuries. a recent comp in wexford was an eye opener for me. at the end of the comp i walked down to the waters edge to clean my bucket to witness the majority of the fish being washed around in the waves dead after appearently swimming off unscaved when i realesed them. we all know whiting are floaters, small coalies are the same as are mini codling. im not saying to you to stop fishing these marks, i coulndt care less where you fish or what you catch. its just rich to give out to people who kill fish when infact release or not release is indeed a sort of redundant uestion. small fish have a high mortality rate. having seen pictures with sharks coughing up there stomach i can only assume it isnt the best for them either. catching fish will inevitablty kill some even if you do put them back. so giving out to people for keeping a few is a bit rich, the moral of the story is il still go fishing dead mini or semi concsious mini

i wanst having a go, just showing an example.

[Aurelien]

I think this post was made by somebody who, and I think a lot of you knows him I presume, love fishing, who release most of his fish and is simply fed up to see him or others abused when they said they have kept some fish for the table.

We all enjoy fishing, and nobody has right (C&R or F&R), some people enjoy things differently.

Now for me the point is to release fish in the better condition. I simply believe that more fish are put back, more fish will be there for the next time. And I no more feel the need to come back home with a fish for food or glory (except maybe a nice giltheadbream )...

That's only how , I, now enjoy fishing and I am not a fanatic who try to convert people to C&R. I respect the choice made by the angler who will bring home the fruit of a day on the shore or a trophy fish for taxidermy.

What I can't understand is slaughter of fish from any species and any size.

Of course Eric you touch the painfull point, and nobody can't say you're wrong, we all now that (if I can remember from a study about C&R for freshwater) only approx 55% of the released will survive (and smaller the fish higher the mortality rate), but even if it's only 30%, on my opinion it's always better than 0%.

I think everybody has to respect each other choice at the moment it's not prejudicing our sport.

[twinkle]

having been fishing on irish beaches for 40 odd years this is ridiculas everyone has the right to take what they catch to eat
but the plundering of small fish stocks in the harbours and well known rock marks by the bag full has to be stopped from the age of 5 i was taught to respect the sea and the fish in it. all flatfish under 12 inches long went back[dont know the rgulation size now] all bass under 14 inches went back any white fish under what was considered pan size went back it was the unwritten law passed from father to son and daughters which we all stuck to.then as i got older over to spain seen the anglers with buckets 3 inch bass fish you could put in a fish tank at home all taken to be barbqued shock and horror
that would never happen in ireland i thought and here i am 30yrs later looking at the same script these guys have no interest in angling they want a free meal invite the relatives over to gorge on 3 inch wrasse and pollock they dont care about you or me posting complaints about them . they have been bullied away from the canals and the lakes so they are now going to rape the harbours and when will they stop when theres none there left they will move to the next one and so on. i fish the boat mostly now i have no problem taken fish for the table when i have enough macks for bait i ground fish
most of what i catch around howth would not be big enough to eat so they go back in yes i get the odd floater but the gannets normally sort that for me it saves them diving for another one so i dont feel bad for it not making it i also use 6/0 hooks so i dont hook to many small ones but you still get the odd greedy little bastardo .catch and release is a choice a choice most anglers make when they catch a decent fish most of us stick by the unwritten laws of beach fishing but i think we need to do something to try and stop whats going on all around the country i think this law has to be written and inforced or while there back fishing the baltics we will be crab fishing in greystones and all of our posts and shore pictures will be of different crabs please dont let this happen here

[eyesreilly]

ok, my main point was, despite the fact people preach 100% they are infact hypocrits.your example was a simple case study. to assume 95% of your fish return alive is ignorance. small flounder and dabs swim off after being deep hooked, but they will almost certainly die as a result of these injuries. a recent comp in wexford was an eye opener for me. at the end of the comp i walked down to the waters edge to clean my bucket to witness the majority of the fish being washed around in the waves dead after appearently swimming off unscaved when i realesed them. we all know whiting are floaters, small coalies are the same as are mini codling. im not saying to you to stop fishing these marks, i coulndt care less where you fish or what you catch. its just rich to give out to people who kill fish when infact release or not release is indeed a sort of redundant uestion. small fish have a high mortality rate. having seen pictures with sharks coughing up there stomach i can only assume it isnt the best for them either. catching fish will inevitablty kill some even if you do put them back. so giving out to people for keeping a few is a bit rich, the moral of the story is il still go fishing dead mini or semi concsious mini

i wanst having a go, just showing an example.

It only took me one comp to see that Eric , thats another story. Of course i dont believe that 95% go back, same as i dont believe 90% die, being facetious there not ignorant.

its just rich to give out to people who kill fish when infact release or not release is indeed a sort of redundant uestion

Whats your point here ?I dont give out to people who kill fish,or people who keep a few, in fact i've gone to pains to state the opposite , have you a problem with me telling guys that they shouldnt be keeping every single wrasse they catch?We all know that a percentage of fish wont go back , but that doesnt justify keeping them all in my book. I cant make sense of your final sentence,

the moral of the story is il still go fishing dead mini or semi concsious mini

[dfella25]

I was listening to the news this morning and I heard a report about Minister Dempsey planning on lowering the drink driving limit. I couldn't help of thinking about a similarity with the whole C&R debate. Drinking a certain amount and driving is legal but it is a hot debate with people if it's right or wrong. Although having a pint say is allowed is it right? I've listened to many opinions over the years as to the rights and wrongs of drinking an driving. While I welcomed Fintan's post to debate the issue I think a "final solution" over C&R will never be agreed upon. Mainly because it's not 100% legislated for and second that it would mean changing people's attitudes so much. I think trying to debate C&R without a legal stand point will always cause friction within angling and I'm afraid also prove fruitless.

As a side point I'd like to make that the general attitude amongst scientists is that it's better to take a smaller fish then a big fish that has reproduced a few times. The idea being of removing a strong genetic breeder from a population and there being many small fish to be able to sustain growth of a species. Of course this is no reason for guys to fill bags of mini's!

Lastly I'd like to say that turning on each other and fcuking nit picking will prove as pointless as the debate. Personally I'm not happy with the direction this went last night and I think it could be more harmful then good. It is simply because of the emotions or reactions to the whole C&R debate are normally fired up. I think this is also normally instigated by a pro release post where someone has had a scathing attack at someone for keeping a fish. Which to be fair and if no law was broken is none of their bloody business!

I know what Eric was trying to say last night about survival of small fish but making an example of another angler or choice of venues could have been tackled a little differently in my opinion. Thats not to invalidate Eric's point by any means as it was a good point over mortality. However it could have been handled differently.

[twinkle]

yes i would agree with you on all your points very well put

[Kaner]

You are way out with your 90% theory Eric not sure where you got that from?

How long you using Circle Hooks Eric?

I would love if someone would organise a Circle Hook only event, the catch rates might drop and the points scored would be less but IMHO at the end of that comp you would see nowhere near the casualties lying on the beach at the end that you alluded to.

[eric]

You are way out with your 90% theory Eric not sure where you got that from?

How long you using Circle Hooks Eric?

I would love if someone would organise a Circle Hook only event, the catch rates might drop and the points scored would be less but IMHO at the end of that comp you would see nowhere near the casualties lying on the beach at the end that you alluded to.

read my post again, i refered that number to the amount of small round fish. like whiting, coalies, codling, around the sub 30cm bracket and small flats. i dont use circle hooks because i dont like to limit my catch. i have been keeping tropical fish and angling for around 12 years. believe it or not stress kills fish. a whiting faliing off the rocks at greystones when being thrown back 99% of the time will die, circle hook or no circle hook. a flounder who is gut hooked doesnt stand much chance either. for anyone who believes snipping the hook off will do them any good, also need a wake up call. not only is a hook imbeded in their organs but the inevitablity of infection occuring is very high. i have no moral obligation with someone targetting mins i do it myself. but at the end of the day the nly difference between myself and the polish lads at greystones rock is mine end up being bird food and theirs end up in the pan. this denile about killing fish cause i throw them back and see them sink or half heartedley swim away so i assume their ok is a load of bull.

[Kaner]

a flounder who is gut hooked doesnt stand much chance either

That was what I was alluding to Eric, use Circle hooks if you into a C & R session and thats not even an issue. I also keep fish myself and totally agree that stress kills fish but I would prefer to be a stressed fish than one with a hook in me gut

I returned my only Salmon caught this year (a 13LB Springer). I spend 1000's chasing El Salmo, tavelling all over this beautiful country and when I got my only one this year I put it back.

Why ? Well Karma of course its all about the Karma..........

[eyesreilly]

read my post again, i refered that number to the amount of small round fish. like whiting, coalies, codling, around the sub 30cm bracket and small flats. i dont use circle hooks because i dont like to limit my catch. i have been keeping tropical fish and angling for around 12 years. believe it or not stress kills fish. a whiting faliing off the rocks at greystones when being thrown back 99% of the time will die, circle hook or no circle hook. a flounder who is gut hooked doesnt stand much chance either. for anyone who believes snipping the hook off will do them any good, also need a wake up call. not only is a hook imbeded in their organs but the inevitablity of infection occuring is very high. i have no moral obligation with someone targetting mins i do it myself. but at the end of the day the nly difference between myself and the polish lads at greystones rock is mine end up being bird food and theirs end up in the pan. this denile about killing fish cause i throw them back and see them sink or half heartedley swim away so i assume their ok is a load of bull.

Eric, those Polish lads were actually Latvians, talk about reading the post again , which by the way was on a different post .I see the point youre making ,stress, gut hooked fish, etc, but still dont agree with your percentages. As for the Latvian lads, I had no problem with them taking fish and told them so , just not every single fish, and they werent all mini wrasse either. I tend to fish with my finger on the line, feeling every bite and have to say I get very few deep hooked fish, nearly all lip hooked. I'm nearly sure i've caught the same wrasse several times on some occassions, so they couldnt have been that stressed. Of course i've seen fish go belly up, but not 90% Even if they died later would I not see them floating on top. From the few comps i attended, maybe the reason so many go belly up is that the priority for many is to get the next bait out, get your fish measured and signed for, then throw them back.My priority is to take a quick pic, then put them back, then bait up again. PS i'M NOT IN DENILE .Just because i object to people purposely setting out to keep all fish doesnt mean i'm a c+r fanatic.Wait till they arrive at kittykat strand, or mc muffin beach and keep everything.I love fishing,,,,,,,,,,some fish die,,,,,,,,,,,not too bothered by that ,,,,,,,but at least i try . Talk about the fish getting stressed, ,,,,,,,,,,i'll leave it at that,,,,,,,,,,,ps,,,,i think youre an A1 GUY TOO

[Aurelien]

I totally agree with Twinkle ... You are lucky here in Ireland to have good sea fishing and it's not too late to fight to preserve it and maybe make it better. When the shore line will be a desert (like most of the French Mediterranean coast) where catching a 30cm bass or giltheadbream is an exploit, it will be too late.

Nobody can say keep all the fish, no need to release them they are already dead that's not true ... It's like a suicide ...

There is a lot of way to limit casualties. Circle hooks are one. Good fish handling (not squeezing them, not cover them with sand ect...) is a second one and using bigger hooks is another one.

Leaving the hook in deep hooked fish can be a solution as well (if you use non stainless steel hooks of course). I came accross a study made by the IFREMER a couple of years ago made on both freshwater fish (trout and coarse fish) and sea fish (giltheadbream and other sea bream family members).Wild fish have a totally different immune system than mammals. This one is strong and fish can survive to a lot of damages (external and internal). Fish stomach acid can dissolve a hook very quickly and the fish immune system beat a lot of infection ( I am not saying all the fish survive but a good percentage of them, around 40% at the end of the study).

I went out yesterday evening and make a simple test. Two rods. One with big hooks and big baits and one with small hooks with small baits.

Ok, my catch rate was lower on big hooks but even small whiting were lip hooked. On the release side, approximately 70 % of the lip hooked go back with no sign of distress. It fall to 45% on small hooks. I change the small hooks for circle hooks of the same size. Well I notice a little fall on the catching rate but on the release side the rise came to approximately 80%.

Of course, you can be sure, that a certain number will die later. So I wait and walk around where I was fishing and just find 2 more dead whiting (surely from stress). So I can assume that on 71 small whiting caught around 50 % will survive.

Like Eyesreilly said, it's not because some people are not ok with the idea of keeping all the fish, it made us C&R fanatics.
(I have nothing against killing animals as I hunt ... But some of us don't feel the need to deliberately kill them all).

It's just being worry about the future of angling. I think most of us don't want to feel lucky to end up catching a couple of 10 cm fish (like in some European countries where the sea angling tackle now looks more like small coarse fishing tackle because of the lack of good sized fish due to overfishing (from commercial, sports and leisure anglers, pollution and habitat destruction) proved not by just feelings and ideas but by scientific studies and observations from the divers.

[PaddyB]

I totally agree with Twinkle ... You are lucky here in Ireland to have good sea fishing and it's not too late to fight to preserve it and maybe make it better. When the shore line will be a desert (like most of the French Mediterranean coast) where catching a 30cm Bass or giltheadbream is an exploit, it will be too late.

Nobody can say keep all the fish, no need to release them they are already dead that's not true ... It's like a suicide ...

There is a lot of way to limit casualties. Circle hooks are one. Good fish handling (not squeezing them, not cover them with sand ect...) is a second one and using bigger hooks is another one.

Leaving the hook in deep hooked fish can be a solution as well (if you use non stainless steel hooks of course). I came accross a study made by the IFREMER a couple of years ago made on both freshwater fish (trout and coarse fish) and sea fish (giltheadbream and other sea bream family members).Wild fish have a totally different immune system than mammals. This one is strong and fish can survive to a lot of damages (external and internal). Fish stomach acid can dissolve a hook very quickly and the fish immune system beat a lot of infection ( I am not saying all the fish survive but a good percentage of them, around 40% at the end of the study).

I went out yesterday evening and make a simple test. Two rods. One with big hooks and big baits and one with small hooks with small baits.

Ok, my catch rate was lower on big hooks but even small whiting were lip hooked. On the release side, approximately 70 % of the lip hooked go back with no sign of distress. It fall to 45% on small hooks. I change the small hooks for circle hooks of the same size. Well I notice a little fall on the catching rate but on the release side the rise came to approximately 80%.

Of course, you can be sure, that a certain number will die later. So I wait and walk around where I was fishing and just find 2 more dead whiting (surely from stress). So I can assume that on 71 small whiting caught around 50 % will survive.

Like Eyesreilly said, it's not because some people are not ok with the idea of keeping all the fish, it made us C&R fanatics.
(I have nothing against killing animals as I hunt ... But some of us don't feel the need to deliberately kill them all).

It's just being worry about the future of angling. I think most of us don't want to feel lucky to end up catching a couple of 10 cm fish (like in some European countries where the sea angling tackle now looks more like small coarse fishing tackle because of the lack of good sized fish due to overfishing (from commercial, sports and leisure anglers, pollution and habitat destruction) proved not by just feelings and ideas but by scientific studies and observations from the divers.

What venues around Ireland have you Fished Aurelien? & when did you first fish in this country?

[Aurelien]

I have been in Ireland for 3 years now and 8 years ago spend 2 years here. I have found that the fishing has changed but is still of a higher grade than most of the European countries I have fished (France my native country, Spain, Italy, Portugal).

In Ireland I have fished on the East coast from Carlingford down to Wexford, from rocks, beaches and piers. I have also fished for pike a lot of the Midland loughs.

When I was talking about a lack of fish, I was talking about my own country as I have fished there for 30 years ( I have 33 and caught my first fish 30 years ago and I can tell you that people and not only commercials have killed the Mediterrannean sea.

I totally assume the fact that I have little experience of fishing here as it is totally different than the Mediterranean sea, but studies are here, locals have seen the fall in shore fish stocks, and we all see people keeping bags of fish.

I came back here because I love your country and it make me sick to see its waters raped, full of rubbish in certain palces and taking the same way as some others European waters.

As I was saying everybody has a different view on angling and taking care about the environment. I just want to share with you my French experience on how to kill shore fishing (both by locals, other French and non National), and with the massive killing of fish (both freshwater and saltwater, and I don't think it's only my imagination), Irish shore fishing will be ending up like Twinkle said. And when it will be like that it will be far too late.

[PaddyB]

I have been in Ireland for 3 years now and 8 years ago spend 2 years here. I have found that the fishing has changed but is still of a higher grade than most of the European countries I have fished (France my native country, Spain, Italy, Portugal).

In Ireland I have fished on the East coast from Carlingford down to Wexford, from rocks, beaches and piers. I have also fished for pike a lot of the Midland loughs.

When I was talking about a lack of fish, I was talking about my own country as I have fished there for 30 years ( I have 33 and caught my first fish 30 years ago and I can tell you that people and not only commercials have killed the Mediterrannean sea.

I totally assume the fact that I have little experience of fishing here as it is totally different than the Mediterranean sea, but studies are here, locals have seen the fall in shore fish stocks, and we all see people keeping bags of fish.

I came back here because I love your country and it make me sick to see its waters raped, full of rubbish in certain palces and taking the same way as some others European waters.

As I was saying everybody has a different view on angling and taking care about the environment. I just want to share with you my French experience on how to kill shore fishing (both by locals, other French and non National), and with the massive killing of fish (both freshwater and saltwater, and I don't think it's only my imagination), Irish shore fishing will be ending up like Twinkle said. And when it will be like that it will be far too late.

I too care about the state of our fish stocks, but have a slightly more optimistic view than yourself, I am 33, & have fished since I was a child. To make it clear my experience in only based on North Donegal. I fished the Moville Boat Angling Festival, for 4 years in a row from I was 13 untill I was 17 and fished with the moville club during that period of time too. I can honestly say that I dont ever remember a Cod being caught once during that time. I stopped fishing for several years but have gradually got back into it over this last few years. During this summer I have witnessed several Cod being landed (and returned) and have heard accounts from one of the local charter skippers about guys catching quite a decent number of cod (they were targeting them with mussels) he maintains that there has been a gradual increase in number over the past few years. Tope is another species which was almost a mythical fish up with us during the early 90's they are now here in reasonable numbers.
I am old enough to remember the bad old days of weigh-ins after comps, Moville was no different, fertiliser bags full of Pollack & Coalies taken back to the pier, and their carcases being kicked around the place for days afterwards.
Funny enough the one species that was returned back then was Gurnard, and as the results of this years Ulster Gold medal in Culdaff (more or less in the same fishing grounds) will show, nearly 400 red gurnard recorded on one boat alone, goes some way to show that with most comps operating on a catch and release basis we are on the right road to getting the balance right.

[Aurelien]

Got your point Paddy, and I am happy to see that things are not as dark as I see them.

Happy also to see that C&R comps are held.

About the cod was it a regular catch before or do you see them only for a few years ? And about the tope, what do you think is responsible for the increase ? I have found nothing on this on internet. Could it be climate change, or the fact that tope are difficult to catch (for the average angler) and more released nowadays ?

I am happy that you have enough fishing years behind you. Have you witnessed a change in your catch from the shore (species, size, quantity)? And have you notice if there is more angling (leisure angling) pressure in your area?

Sorry to ask you so much questions, but to have a more complete picture of the angling here, I like to have this kind of questions answered by anglers who can refer on a lot of years of experience and can have notice some change and maybe gave a good opinion on it.

If other anglers fishing different areas could give their opinion on these few questions that would be great ...

[PaddyB]

I dont understand what you are askin about the Cod? but I can say that they would have been common years ago 70's maybe even 80's (my family, Father, and Uncles would have been Comercial fisherman years ago) In my life time I have never seen as many caught as what Ive seen this past year, although the numbers are still very small.
As for the Tope, I dont know the exact reasons, but I can only assume that the ceasation of weigh-in's at comps has helped. The reason I say this is because when I worked in Larne, a work college there talked quite frequently about the amount of Tope killed needlessly at comps he attended around Donegal.

[Aurelien]

Thanks ... About the cod it was to know if it was a new specie in your area or if they were returning after years of absence ...

And about tope we can think that catch and release made their number rise ...

Thanks again ...