Cause for concern?

[Divisadero]

Thanks a mill Tanglerat.

I hope your head won't be too sore tomorrow.

Walter

[Ashley Hayden]

There is something up guys and Jim has a right to be concerned. A sea angler living in county Wexford who keeps a fishing diary, I have seen a slow deterioration in catches since 2007 speeding up in the last two years, http://www.anirishanglersworld.com/inde ... eflection/, with bass in particular getting smaller and less frequent.

I agree with Lastcast referencing red tide, recent beach fishing trips I have undertaken have resulted in bait coming back untouched which is very unusual. Oxygen depletion caused by excessive amounts of plankton can occur which will drive fish and invertebrates out and I believe that this could be a reason for bad catches at present.

That said, the graph on my diary continues to have a downward trend and there is only one cause for this, overfishing. Sea anglers (of all ages) today should accept that their fishing is mediocre at best, then and only then will it begin to get better. You can post up all the images of big bass caught off the Isle of Mull or fine wrasse and pollack caught in West Cork, these are pockets of good fishing or isolated catches and should be seen as that. I'm not a doomsday merchant, just a realist who has seen fishing disappear before his eyes and would very much like it back.

It's time for action and a coming together not indignation posted on a forum.

Denial and accepting mediocrity is why debates like this will unfortunately continue until all the fish are gone.

[Tanglerat]

OK chaps, I've split out a couple of important posts and started them into a thread of their own. confusingly it's also got the same thread title as this one, but don't get them mixed up. Here is for discussion about a drop in fish numbers being caught, the other thread is about commercial fishermen wanting to legally get their hands on the Irish Bass stock.

[lastcast]

Well said Ashley

Hopefully we can have a robust adult discussion about this.

The only point I disagree with is that the cause is overfishing. There is another possibility that has not been discussed so far, and that is poor recruitment. It could well be that we have experience a number of poor spawning years or years of high juvenile mortality. This would work it's way through the demographics of the population until we would see only low numbers of large fish, which is what some are reporting here. It is a few years since I caught a "schoolie" in Donegal. We may have been dealt a double blow if this is the case, and we have also had the phytoplankton blooms. I believe there is more to this than overfishing, we have the best protected bass stocks in Europe, I believe.

[Ashley Hayden]

Over fishing is the problem, European waters have been commercially fished since the 10th century with only two recent lengthy periods of regeneration namely the first and second world wars. World sea fish stocks are only 10% of what they were using 1950 as a baseline. Based on commercial landing stats' 1989 is the year world fish stocks went into decline after WW2, and the graph is still going down even allowing for increased technology and effort. OUR SEAS AND OCEANS ARE EMPTYING AT AN ALARMING RATE.

The above is reflected all around our coastline, forget about isolated pockets of fish or single species, the marine environment is a linked web of lifeforms, remove one and you upset the balance, remove scores like we have done with fish and you have a problem. One reason red tides occur is because we have emptied the seas of pelagic species such as mackerel and herring whose young especially feed on plankton. So now you have two problems which are linked to over fishing of pelagic species, anoxic inshore conditions and lack of forage fish for predators like cod and bass. I do not mean to lecture but these facts and others need to be grasped.

I catch decent fish still but only after putting in a lot of effort as they are few and far between, and I certainly do not catch the range of species that I did in the past because they are not there.

[Donnyboy1]

One reason red tides occur is because we have emptied the seas of pelagic species such as mackerel and herring whose young especially feed on plankton. So now you have two problems which are linked to over fishing of pelagic species, anoxic inshore conditions and lack of forage fish for predators like cod and Bass. I do not mean to lecture but these facts and others need to be grasped.
.

sorry Ashley, that's not true. Red tide is 100% natural and unrelated to man in any way.... Its due to salinity, temperature and nutrient content. Red tide is an algae not plankton.... Fish don't feed on it but if they come into contact with it they become paralysed and die...

yes... These facts need to be grasped

red tides are a natural occurance al be it random... But so are the perceived lack of bass... Anyone one remember 2 winters ago when the bass seemed to stay inshore all throughly winter? Sometimes things just happen!

[Ashley Hayden]

I don't want to get into a scientific debate but to quote Professor Callum Roberts a marine conservation biologist based at York University, England and an adviser for the BBC series The Blue Planet, "plankton blooms can be toxic. Some marine plants produce potent poisons. Collectively they are known as harmful algal blooms, but more commonly they are called red or brown tides". Lifted from, Oceans of Life, page 116.

Red tides can be and are being exacerbated by what we are doing to the marine environment. Yes red tides are a natural phenomenon but excessive use of fertilizer/slurry on land washed into the sea will fuel plankton growth. which again can be exacerbated by lack of foraging fish, eg, herring and mackerel fry.

Sorry Donnyboy1, I'm not smug or arrogant and certainly do not write on this subject within this forum because i like to see myself in print. Man does have an effect on Red Tides, I've just given two, and I don't quote Prof' Roberts lightly.

[Donnyboy1]

Nowhere in your reference from Professor Callum Roberts does he state

One reason red tides occur is because we have emptied the seas of pelagic species

Everything else he says is accurate and I do not disagree with it.

Linking several inter-related facts to give you a conclusion is not really an accurate way to measure correlation (although it may be fun to do)... that is like saying seagulls eating pelagic fish are also causing the redtide... or possibly whales...

[beachbuddy]

Heres one for you Donnyboy.Sometime in the recent past on this site you made referance to the large amounts of big bass that you encountered along the east cork coastline when you were diving.Just wondering if you have noticed any change in their numbers since you mentioned it in your post.
From my angling experience[30 odd yrs],i always thought that bass were creatures of habit and also very slow maturing fish.Therefore i would of assumed that if an area had a good presence of smaller 2/3lb fish along with a stock of much larger mature fish say for example 10 years ago then those areas should be heaving with good sized bass now and some whoppers.This should definately be the case especially if ireland has such good regulations around bass[on paper ],but its not.
Obviously certain [non scientific] factors will affect levels ie natural wastage,fish been caught by rod and line and not returned and a thing called netting.The cause for drop in numbers imo is offshore overfishing of migrating bass and the illegal inshore large scale netting that has been going on over the years.
I for one don't buy into the idea that bass may have just upped sticks and moved elsewhere to the likes of northern areas around ireland and the uk.Yes a certain amount will move on if conditions are right ie temps etc,but if this is the case surely there should be more fish migrating from warmer climates to replace the "local" stocks.Before someone points out that the irish bass are a differant "breed" to say fish in the bay of biscay with only a small percentage of crossover,i realise that fact.But surely if natural causes are meaning that bass are moving further north then surely their more southern cousins should be replacing them,hence bulking up numbers of the remaing local stocks.
This aint happening,well i have'nt seen it.I most admit that ive been lucky to have had my fair share of proper bass down through the years locally and around the southern coast but definately the numbers of sizeable fish are down.Some of the best populated bass spots i know of these days are areas of large amounts of boating traffic etc.This makes these places very hard for anglers to fish and more importantly NET ,the result these areas have had an "increase" in numbers and large fish over the years thus proving that when netting cannot take place in such areas or lots of anglers taking fish,then the very localised stock can get much stronger in numbers and size.
One thing that i do agree on is the devastation these red tides can cause and i really hope it disperses soon before more damage is done.
As for other reasons for drops in catch rates of mature bass this im afraid imo is completely down to overfishing be it legal or illegal simples and nothing will change my mind on this.Dont even get me started on the other inshore species,at least the fish in my tank have a chance to enjoy themselves and not get caught up in trawls and mono nets.
Off now to feed the little feckers so they can grow big and strong

[lastcast]

Ashley,
This is an Irish problem. There are NOT "small pockets of fish" around the UK, the picture for bass at least is actually getting better. I did not post a picture of a big fish from the the Isle of Mull, you can't have looked at the website properly, These are thriving and improving fisheries, each the size of Wexford and Waterford combined. Yes I know other finfish are being overfished everywhere, but the picture for bass is different. It is the other way round in the UK, there are isolated pockets where the bass fishing has got worse. Something has happened to Irish stocks.

[twinkle]

i have for many years been of the opinion that all fish move around they dont stay in areas for very long [unless there is an abundance of something they like]and until a proper study of bass and there habits is done we will never know.a tagging system like tope should give an idea as to the movements and migration of this species.the ocean and its inhabitants are a fronteer we still havent unravelled and a tagging system seems the only way we can determine were our bass firstly come from and more importantly were they go to and end up.for years we were told tope stay around ireland until one was released in westport and was tagged and caught again 14 days later in france.

[Ashley Hayden]

I'm not here to score points, it's not in my nature, my post is not referencing bass per se, albeit Jim's original post is. My contribution to the thread is taking into account based on experience in recent weeks along the Wexford coast that we might be witnessing the negative effects of a plankton bloom here as well, I stress might.

Jim asked the question "is something up?", and I tend to agree with him, and over fishing is the key. My reference to isolated catches and pockets of fish relates to the odd decent fish which is still caught and areas where fishing could still be measured on catches of twenty plus years ago which today are few and far between.

As for red tides, my post clearly states that the greatly reduced numbers of pelagic fish can exacerbate the phenomenon of red tides as against being the reason. When you consider that Iceland/Faroe Islands in the last two years have removed upwards of 500,000 tonnes of mackerel from the north east Atlantic over and above the supposed sustainable quota of give or take 500,000 tonnes a year then you have a big problem, and that is before you take into account herring, sardine, pilchards, etc.

Please read before you respond, this writer has no ego and doesn't make statements lightly. The sea and its mechanics have changed greatly in my lifetime and as I have stated here before I am only 51. The change is rapid and it ain't slowing down.

[Divisadero]

Ashley,
This is an Irish problem. There are NOT "small pockets of fish" around the UK, the picture for Bass at least is actually getting better. I did not post a picture of a big fish from the the Isle of Mull, you can't have looked at the website properly, These are thriving and improving fisheries, each the size of Wexford and Waterford combined. Yes I know other finfish are being overfished everywhere, but the picture for Bass is different. It is the other way round in the UK, there are isolated pockets where the Bass fishing has got worse. Something has happened to Irish stocks.

There is indeed evidence that bass are now showing up in areas in which there were previously non-existent or at least extremely rare (Northern England and Scotland for example) due to climate change. But a wider distribution does not necessarily equate to greater numbers or to a healthier fishery. Even if the numbers have increased (and that is a matter of opinion) the average size of fish in many parts of the U.K. seems a lot smaller than their Irish counterparts. Looking at U.K. catch reports the average size of fish seems to be in the 1-2lb bracket. This could be due to many reasons including differences in diet but it could also be due to overfishing.

[beachbuddy]

[quote="beachbuddy"]Heres one for you Donnyboy.Sometime in the recent past on this site you made referance to the large amounts of big Bass that you encountered along the east cork coastline when you were diving.Just wondering if you have noticed any change in their numbers since you mentioned it in your post.

Donny you might have missed my question since you last looked at the site ,so ive put it up again.It would be really interesting if you have witnessed these big bass recently if you've been diving around the east cork coastline.Obviously not looking for locations just wondering if they still exist in the large numbers you mentioned previously.
If not then have you any ideas or scientific theories as to where they have gone.

[Donnyboy1]

Sorry, I read it last night and intended to reply but I was making homemade pizza

Two points though raised above. In the uk small fish are usually caught from the shore as bigger fish are usually caught in deeper water.
In Ireland bigger fish are caught in shallow water an smaller fish are caught in deeper water.
For instance I know of a 13lb bass yesterday that was speared in UK by a freediver in 18m, I also heard a 12lb bass was angled recently locally in very shallow water.
I rarely see small bass when I dive but once last summer I was surrounded by a large shoal of bout 40-50 small schoolies in a place in east cork.
My impression is there are nurseries where schoolies grow and they they will shoal together in deeper water for safety and as they get bigger they hunt more so on their own and in shallower water (opposite to UK)

Another point, I think I read a paper before about how bass go offshore to deeper water over winter but they always return to the same bay or cobh.
There is some studies on them being territorial... I can't find it now (after a quick look) but I saw another few interesting articles
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 3604000190
http://www.springerlink.com/content/29tq239eb783ay21/ (effects of temperature and salinity....)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 3605001670

Also this is a very famous paper on Irish bass, it is from the late 60's but the work is still referenced as important in more modern studies
http://sabella.mba.ac.uk/2503/01/Occure ... reland.pdf
another
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/di ... id=4320684


Another interesting paper describing the effects of salinity
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 8685900900

Going back to your question beachbuddy...
I actually went out for a dive yesterday. I have to say that this is maybe only my third time out looking for bass (since march) so I've not been out much this year.
But I went to a particular holding area in east cork which is just amazing. with good visibility I could easily see 30-40 large fish over 4lb (seldom anything smaller).
I got there with an offshore wind and swell so the water was pretty flat, and when I hoped in it was really clear, bout 6-8m so I reckoned I should see a lot.
Within about 30 seconds I spotted my fish mullet of about 4lb, and I stayed still and called him over (make a gutteral noise in your throat and their curiosity brings them over to investigate) as usually you will find bass swimming with them, but only 2 more mullet of the same size came.
I wont bore you with details but that continued for the next 90 minutes. In this location I normally see 4 or 5 bass for every mullet, but yesterday I saw no bass and about 10+ mullet.
Now I did notice some other weird things...
1. there was a lot less weed out there that would be expected for this time of year. Much of it had been washed up over the last few weeks and even more is suspended in the water as its being broken down decomposed. Bass hold up in this weed for protection and you will always see them lying on the bits of sand between the weed. It hides them from things like seals. So without this cover... would they stay? Mullet on the other hand do not have this habit.
2. As mentioned there is still some rotting seaweed in some of the places I would expect to see bass, specifically up the gullies, and I'm almost positive there is a smell from it which puts off fish.
3. Surprisingly there is quite a substantial plankton bloom going on.... I say surprising as these mainly occur in late april/may around the time basking sharks come in... so getting one around Aug is odd..
4. There was a much bigger number of jellyfish than normal including many siphonophores which is unusual in itself. Also there was (as others have reported) a large number of baitfish. I met another fisherman on a boat an he was telling me there was a lot less pollock/macks at this spot than has been in the last week or two.
5. Water temp here was 13'c but temps of 15 and 16 are being reported from west cork and wexford, so maybe it was just this spot and offshore wind combo.

I have to say I normally go to this spot at low tide and yesterday it was mid tide on the drop so the bass might still be there on the low, only I didn't see them at mid tide.

Only observations but there is a lot more going on in the water than just an absence of bass.

Oh ya... spider crabs were at it like rabbits... everywhere I looked they were on top of each other doing the hokey pokey with each other

[MackDublin]

Well said Ashley

Hopefully we can have a robust adult discussion about this.

The only point I disagree with is that the cause is overfishing. There is another possibility that has not been discussed so far, and that is poor recruitment. It could well be that we have experience a number of poor spawning years or years of high juvenile mortality. This would work it's way through the demographics of the population until we would see only low numbers of large fish, which is what some are reporting here. It is a few years since I caught a "schoolie" in Donegal. We may have been dealt a double blow if this is the case, and we have also had the phytoplankton blooms. I believe there is more to this than overfishing, we have the best protected Bass stocks in Europe, I believe.

Overfishing
There may be a combination of factors effecting current bass numbers but overfishing is definitely one of them and a significant one.
Overfishing takes many forms. There is domestic overfishing and then the doomsday scenario where our bass may be getting intercepted offshore on their migratory path. There is also the situation where connected species are overfished.

In terms of domestic,this is illegal netting, recreational overfishing and spearfishing.
All of these practices have grown in the last number of years.
There are a finite number of marks on the coast where bass can be regularly caught. My personal experience is that these marks have been opened up a significant scale in the past 5/6 years. Marks where you would see nobody on now have people parked on them, particularly when the fish are on.
- IFI have confirmed that netting is worse with people who left it alone during celtic tiger years now getting back into it because money is tight. Obviously some illegal netters never left the stage.
- There has been a massive influx of recreational anglers specifically fishing for bass this past number of years. Just look at the walls of lures in most tackle shops now that didn't exist just a few short years ago (Henrys being the exception)
- Recreational overfishing has become endemic on some marks with no controls to stop people taking any amount of fish caught.
- The number of people taking their legal 2 limit has increased substantially.
- Fishing Forums (mostly through pm's) have led to the widespread sharing of marks. I'm sure the same happens on spearo sites.

Poor Recruitment
How can it be that marks where consistent numbers of 6lb + could be caught up to 3 years ago are now for the most part devoid of these fish. How does poor recruitment explain this?

"we have the best protected Bass stocks in Europe, I believe"
For the most part on paper. As an example, there is rampant netting going on along the wexford coast and not 1 (NOT ONE!) conviction last year, despite systematic reporting to relevant agencies.
With the explosion of recreational bass fishing there is also significant catch and keep going on on some marks along the south east coast and not 1 ( NOT ONE!) conviction for this last year despite systematic reporting.
Where is the protection you talk about? Please list the convictions for any form of illegal bass fishing anywhere around our coast for the past 12 months. If they exist at all you will be able to count them on your 2 thumbs.

[broony]

Hello everyone

I think I can contribute a little to this discussion. I live in North East England and fish for Bass there and also often in the South West of Scotland around the Mull of Galloway area. I also get over to Wexford once a year as well.

Firstly, the North East is suposedly one of these developing Bass areas. We have and had in the past a number of coastal powerstations that act as Bass nurseries. Some of these have closed now and it seems like the Bass population have spread more thoroughly along the coast and also I belive we are seeing warmer waters which is also helping. However our Bass fishing here is far from productive. A good session up here would be to catch a Bass, and extremely good session would be to catch two or more.

From personal experiences the average size of Bass would be around a pound and a half to two punds, with a three pound fish considered a nice one. We have caught the odd four and five pound fish here in the last few years but they would be rare and considered a real prize. (Myself and my friends all fish catch and release so the prize is just seeing the fish)

This year has been weird. We have had no summer to speak of and as a result the water temperatures took an age to rise and as we have such a shallow coastline for the most part the swells were making the water extremely coloured and very weedy. There had not been any real reports of local bass being caught until maybe two or three weeks ago. That is not to say they weren't there but not many people were targeting because of the conditions and those that had been had not been doing too well.

In the last couple of weeks the weather has improved a great deal, still not really summer but much better. There are now a few catches coming in and myself and a friend have had a couple of excellent sessions with 22 fish between usin four short sessions which is exceptional fishing for us. I must add that there fish were around the two pound mark with a couple of threes in there. Not big by most of your standards. However they seem to be in very small pockets. All those fish were from one mark, other marks that should be producing by now are still not fishing.

As the fishing in the North East is not exactly explosive, we spend a lot of our summers over in the Mull of Galloway in the south west of Scotland. This place is a real fishing paridise with excellent fishing compared to back home. Wives, girlfriends and children permitting we get over on about 10 trips a summer, usually for two or three nights each time. The area has excellent fishing for many species such as tope, ray, smoothies, huss, Pollock, wrasse, gurnard, and for us Bass.

A typical two day trip would maybe see 5 - 10 fish in the 2-4lbs range and maybe 3-5 fish in the 4-7lb category. This year however has only seen us find small fish. One mark we usually start of a nights session at as it fishes well for smaller fish is fishing fine. We usually start here, have a fish or two to get confidence up and then move on. This mark is unchanged from any previous year.

Then we would typically move on to a number of different marks where there is usually a few fewer fish but they will be of good size with a double a possibility. This year all of these marks have been barren. Maybe one fish caught by one of us but then not another touch all night. I think in 5 trips so far the biggest fish has been 4lbs. If I remember right there has been three fish of this size and all the rest have been at the two pound mark. Previous years had seen us with good fish over 5lbs by this time, with good consitencey. What is interesting as well is that we are not seeing any bird activity and much less seal sightings. Everywhere just seems to be dead, void of life.

I personally believe it to be down to weather. I think the continual series of low pressure systems, one after the other has mucked things up this year in a big way. The bait the birds and fish are feeding on are elsewhere, maybe offshore. The seals are not in as the fish they feed on have no food to keep them there. Summer just hasn't happened. It will be ineteresting to see what happens in the next couple of months, if the fish turn up in numbers for the late season or if we just don't see them this year.

I am not aware of any algal blooms in the North Sea or around South West Scotland. I am not saying it wouldn't be affecting you lads but it seems there is something else creating a generally poor season for us over here. I have heard the same being said all around the UK. Yes people had some good fishing early on this year, and especially late last year, but since June everything seems to be down on last year and years previous.

Hope this isn't goibng to be our typical summer from now on.

[broony]

Two points though raised above. In the uk small fish are usually caught from the shore as bigger fish are usually caught in deeper water.
In Ireland bigger fish are caught in shallow water an smaller fish are caught in deeper water.
For instance I know of a 13lb Bass yesterday that was speared in UK by a freediver in 18m, I also heard a 12lb Bass was angled recently locally in very shallow water.
I rarely see small Bass when I dive but once last summer I was surrounded by a large shoal of bout 40-50 small schoolies in a place in east cork.
My impression is there are nurseries where schoolies grow and they they will shoal together in deeper water for safety and as they get bigger they hunt more so on their own and in shallower water (opposite to UK)

Hi mate

I don't really think that is the case. Locally in the North East of England we only see Bass on shallow marks, the deeper marks you get cod, pollock, wrasse, whatever, but never Bass. We have a lot of storm beaches here, they are usually on the beaches or nearby.

In Scotland we fish the Mull of Galloway, this is a 15 mile or so long peninsula. The west side on the Irish sea is deep, deep water marks, the east side is very shallow sloping sand and pebble beaches. It is the east side that prodominantly fishes for Bass, the west is Pollock heaven but only a few bass are caught on that side, mostly on or near the beaches.

I know in Yorkshire where the coast is a lot more rocky, they are still mostly catching Bass on relatively shallow watter once it starts to flood over ther reefs and skeers.

I have been down to cornwall a few times and the water on the North coast in general is a lot deeper than what we have back home, still only 6 -15 feet as an avaerage I would guess, but deeper all the same. From fishing there and speaking to locals, they have quite a small average size but fish are more plentiful. There is however a very heavy commercial pressence down there.

[Ashley Hayden]

So as not to confuse when Broony talks about bass fishing on the Mull of Gallowey, he is most likely describing Luce Bay which has had a resident bass population for a long time. I haven't the books to hand but I have references published in the 60's and 70's that mention Luce Bay and bass fishing. Global warming is not a factor for their presence so far north. It's nice to hear that the area still fishes well.

[broony]

Hi Ashley

I think you missed the bit where I said it isn't fishing well at all this year.