Reintroduction of Salmon Farming in Bertraghboy Bay..

Hey lads I'm sure some people may be aware of this already but got this from another forum I'm on, the more names signed on the petition the better, could you please sign this, as we all know the reintroduction of salmon farming could destroy stocks of both salmon and sea trout in the area. I know this is a sea angling website but this is a major conservation issue, and all anglers conservation minded should be aware of the issue and give their support. More info can be found on the link.

http://www.petitiononline.com/seatrout/petition.html

crazy carry on! - for a failed enterprise

this is a crazy proposal,who the f**k is allowing this,i mean did nobody learn from the last time,or is our government that desperate for revenue that they will sell our rights to the highest bidder

I have just signed the petition, fair play to James Barry to make us aware of it! It's a pity to see greed and ignorance prevail, especially in difficult times ahead. Will politicians in power ever learn from mistakes mankind has made in the past? I doubt it!

Signed the petition too, ridiculous carry on..their memories cant be that short

Signed.

I will not be signing. Not everyone is anti fishfarming. I have yet to see definative proof nor has it been proved in a court of law that Fishfarms are responsible for the decline of salmon and seatrout.

Nothing in the petition about forsetation of the mountains causing phenols to leech from the pine needles and water ph to drop from ploughing in seedlings. Nothing about sheep overgrazing causing soil erosion and silting up of feeder streams. Nothing about sheep dip being washed into water courses. Nothing about global warming and the decline of natural food for salmon at sea. Nothing about the decline of sandeels from overfishing. Nothing about the increase of seal populations. Nothing about the previous killing of numerous seatrout in spate rivers by anglers (I did it myself when I was younger). Nothing about wholesale poaching where everything from poison to dynamite has been used, in the rivers and illegal driftnets in the bays.

Everyone is entitled to object to something they feel strongly about but if your going to object make sure you know the whole story. Then if you feel the same by all means object. Fix anyone of the points I have made above and it still will not fix the problem.

From my information the fish in the named bay were stocked in October last year and will be out in April/May before any wild fish start to run the rivers in the area, lessening any impact that lice could cause.

Caz

I will not be signing. Not everyone is anti fishfarming. I have yet to see definative proof nor has it been proved in a court of law that Fishfarms are responsible for the decline of salmon and seatrout.

Nothing in the petition about forsetation of the mountains causing phenols to leech from the pine needles and water ph to drop from ploughing in seedlings. Nothing about sheep overgrazing causing soil erosion and silting up of feeder streams. Nothing about sheep dip being washed into water courses. Nothing about global warming and the decline of natural food for salmon at sea. Nothing about the decline of sandeels from overfishing. Nothing about the increase of seal populations. Nothing about the previous killing of numerous seatrout in spate rivers by anglers (I did it myself when I was younger). Nothing about wholesale poaching where everything from poison to dynamite has been used, in the rivers and illegal driftnets in the bays.

Everyone is entitled to object to something they feel strongly about but if your going to object make sure you know the whole story. Then if you feel the same by all means object. Fix anyone of the points I have made above and it still will not fix the problem.

From my information the fish in the named bay were stocked in October last year and will be out in April/May before any wild fish start to run the rivers in the area, lessening any impact that lice could cause.

Caz

Jaysus, where to start? The fact that someone could question the link between salmon farming and sea lice and sea trout stock collapse leads to one of two conclusions - they are a fish farmer themselves, or they have no friggin clue.

I'll address your points:

Nothing in the petition about forsetation of the mountains causing phenols to leech from the pine needles and water ph to drop from ploughing in seedlings.

The Ballynahinch catchment has some forestry, but not enough to cause widespread water pollution. Water quality in the catchment is generally very good. pH levels are not significantly impaired except at a few sites downstream of forestry. It is generally agreed that catchments with forest cover over 50% will suffer water quality impairment sufficient to affect salmonid populations, in Ballynahinch its more like 15-20%.

Nothing about sheep overgrazing causing soil erosion and silting up of feeder streams. Nothing about sheep dip being washed into water courses.

Yes erosion has been a problem, but extensive remedial work has been carried out on streams, including extensive fencing to protect riparian vegetation. There are many feeder streams in the catchment on lower gradients not suffering erosion too. Sheep dip affects stream invertebrates, not the fish themselves. If enough invertebrates are killed there is no food for juvenile fish. Water quality surveys now include invertebrate surveys, these populations show no sign of decline.

Nothing about global warming and the decline of natural food for salmon at sea. Nothing about the decline of sandeels from overfishing.

We are talking mainly about sea trout here, not salmon that may be affected by industrial fishing of capelin and sandeel. Sea trout stocks in many other catchments around Ireland are still healthy and not affected by global warming. Guess what - they're not close to salmon farms either.

Nothing about the increase of seal populations. Nothing about the previous killing of numerous seatrout in spate rivers by anglers (I did it myself when I was younger). Nothing about wholesale poaching where everything from poison to dynamite has been used, in the rivers and illegal driftnets in the bays.

Despite popular opinion among the fishing industry seals are not out of control. Seals depend on the food supply, their numbers can't increase if the food supply isn't there. If seals were out of control fishermen would be applying to cull them left right and centre. There have been 2 applications for seal culling licences in the last 3 years.
Anglers have not been able to kill sea trout in Connemara for 19 years since the byelaw was introduced.
The fisheries protection staff in Connemara are very professional and vigilant. There is no wholesale poaching. Last year they lifted 4 nets, 2 in bays and 2 in rivers. Thats a huge decline on what it was 20 years ago.

Fix anyone of the points I have made above and it still will not fix the problem.

This is the only thing you're dead right about, because the points you made are not the problem. The problem is salmon farming and sea lice.

From my information the fish in the named bay were stocked in October last year and will be out in April/May before any wild fish start to run the rivers in the area, lessening any impact that lice could cause.

Where did you get that information from - first I've heard of this. Salmon take a bit longer than 5 months to reach market size! Also, the critical period is when smolts are migrating to sea - this is when they are most vulnerable. The smolts are migrating as we speak - now. Sea trout also feed in the estuaries and bays close to where the farms are so are exposed for much longer periods of the year.

Look, don't bury your head in the sand. There are over 50 peer-reviewed scientific articles in journals that have proved the link. Why else would the Norwegian government be so strict about lice control on their farms? I personally some of the scientists involved in this field, and I take their word over your attempt to muddy the waters, they are highly qualified and widely respected in the international arena.
Your points above are very similar to the propaganda put about by the salmon farming lobby, are you sure you're not connected to them??


I'll put it this way - 5 years ago, salmon farming ceased in the bay, and cod were farmed until last autumn. Salmon and sea trout stocks both increased hugely in the catchment. Salmon could be attributed to the cessation of driftnetting, but not sea trout. None of the other factors you mentioned above improved or changed in those 4 years. How do you explain this sudden increase??

First of all caz your entitled to your opinion.
You have made valid points and all can be linked to the decline in salmon populations around Ireland. If you feel so strongly about your points you obviously are conservation minded but I honestly don't understand how you can say salmon farms do not have severe consequences for native salmon and sea trout, just look at the problems salmon farms caused in Scotland.
We all know of these problems you mention as they have all been well published and are all being tackled in their own way. The CFB is constantly working on habitat restoration, water quality and the improvement of spawning areas, the money raised from the conservation stamp on the current licenses is going into research on most of the inland problems you mention. The EPA are also investigating ways of dealing with the organic acids you mention that leech into streams from forested areas.

When you say there is no "definative proof" with regards salmon farms....come on, I can happily send you published papers in scientific journals regarding the effects farm escapees can have on native salmon populations when they interbreed lowering the genetic fitness of the population and thus the survival of their offspring. With regards sea lice it HAS been proved that there is a huge build up in and around salmon fish farms. If you can tell me that a small sea trout infested with sea lice as it returns up river to spawn has the same chance of successfully spawning in comparison to a sea tout which does not encounter these such blooms of sea lice....fair enough

As far as "Nothing about global warming and the decline of natural food for salmon at sea" you may want to read up on the current salsea merge project which is currently being undertaken looking into the mortality of salmon at sea....

"From my information the fish in the named bay were stocked in October last year and will be out in April/May before any wild fish start to run the rivers in the area, lessening any impact that lice could cause."
Thats fair enough as regards adult salmon returning to their native streams, but what about salmon smolts migrating out to sea? what about the sea trout that remain in and around estuaries/bay all year round where the farm may be located?

...I have yet to see definative proof...Caz

no problem, here: http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&safe= ... =&aq=f&oq=
Plenty of hard facts and scientifically founded proof

Hi Guys,

I am simply making the point that there are many reasons why sea-trout have declined over the years. The fish farms get the blame all the time as they are an easy target. I am not saying that fishfarms are blameless but I do get annoyed when all the ills are placed at one door when the problem is obviously bigger. I am simply asking why pick on one issue when there are many others that I have listed. Its obvious to anyone with eyes that there are environmental issues in all catchments. Massive forestry (non-native) plantations, Massive overgrazing (landslides in the Errif valley), different weather paterns due to global warming. Salomn running later as all the early run of fish have been harvested out by drift net fishing over many years.

I know fisherys/lakes in connemara that have been killed by foresty but nothing is said. One example of mans ability to kill a fishery is the owenboliska in Spiddle which was once a fantastic salmon and seatrout fishery indeed its second only in catchment size to Ballanahinch. A dam was built on that nothing was done or anything said.

I do work in connemara and I know a lot of people who's livelyhoods and familiys rely on fishfarms. It is a fact that salmon farms are regularly inspected by the dept of marine, Marine institute, co-councils, dept of environment and the fishery boards. If there is such a problem then why have no farms been shut down fined or censured? The farms are also fallowing bays in rotation to lessen lice impact and the lice numbers monitored. Each farm must stay below certain lice limits or they could face sanction. Why havent the fisheries board prosecuted any farms if the evidence is so damning? As for scientists and papers theres as many supporting farms as against them.

If your going to pick on one problem then pick on them all.
Caz

caz ,i agree with you that there are many causes for the decline of salmon and sea trout over the past decade,but there is a lot of sicence proving that fish farms and the explosion of sealice have had a large impact on salmoniods.I think that this petition should be signed to highlight [b]this[b]particular issue! If and when these other issues that you mentioned are highlighted by petitions etc then i would gladly sign these too! One step at a time, this government cant seem to deal with more than one at a time anyway!! I also think this petition should be sent to the green party as well,i mean this is about environmental issues!! and there is a large green party movement in galway!

Hi Guys,

I am simply making the point that there are many reasons why sea-trout have declined over the years. The fish farms get the blame all the time as they are an easy target. I am not saying that fishfarms are blameless but I do get annoyed when all the ills are placed at one door when the problem is obviously bigger. I am simply asking why pick on one issue when there are many others that I have listed. Its obvious to anyone with eyes that there are environmental issues in all catchments. Massive forestry (non-native) plantations, Massive overgrazing (landslides in the Errif valley), different weather paterns due to global warming. Salomn running later as all the early run of fish have been harvested out by drift net fishing over many years.

OK, look at somewhere like the Currane catchment in Kerry. A very similar catchment to Ballynahinch - a short river, with lakes upstream. They have forestry. They have sheep farming and overgrazing. They have the same weather patterns. Their salmon runs have also been subject to driftnetting. But you know what - they have massive stocks of sea trout. The difference is the catchment is not close to any salmon farms.

I know fisherys/lakes in connemara that have been killed by foresty but nothing is said. One example of mans ability to kill a fishery is the owenboliska in Spiddle which was once a fantastic salmon and seatrout fishery indeed its second only in catchment size to Ballanahinch. A dam was built on that nothing was done or anything said.

The Owenboliska catchment is one of the most heavily forested catchments in Ireland. Well above the 50% figure I quoted earlier. Far more forestry than Ballynahinch.

I do work in connemara and I know a lot of people who's livelyhoods and familiys rely on fishfarms. It is a fact that salmon farms are regularly inspected by the dept of marine, Marine institute, co-councils, dept of environment and the fishery boards. If there is such a problem then why have no farms been shut down fined or censured? The farms are also fallowing bays in rotation to lessen lice impact and the lice numbers monitored. Each farm must stay below certain lice limits or they could face sanction. Why havent the fisheries board prosecuted any farms if the evidence is so damning? As for scientists and papers theres as many supporting farms as against them.

If your going to pick on one problem then pick on them all.
Caz

Yes farms are regularly inspected. Yes farms regularly breach the maximum permitted lice levels. Yes, the Marine Institute routinely does nothing about this. No, its not the fisheries board remit. The fisheries board would love to be able to prosecute for this, believe me. The reason the MI does nothing about it - well you can speculate, but as the salmon farmers are part of the most powerful lobby group in the country, the IFA, you don't have to look very far.
As for scientific papers, can you quote any? Can you quote any that were not funded by the industry and are therefore impartial and objective??
I'll quote one - a project some of my colleagues worked on, the SUMBAWS project. Salmon smolts were ranched from fisheries in Connemara. Half were treated with SLICE, a chemical that makes them tolerant to sea lice. Half were left untreated. Then they were released. Guess what, the treated group came back in much greater numbers than the untreated group.

Caz, wise up and cop yourself on, open your eyes to objective scientific evidence. And by the way, before salmon farming, literally hundreds of families in Connemara relied for their livelihood on the sea trout angling and tourist anglers every year. Salmon farms have become increasingly automated and less reliant on manpower - the actual employment generated is minimal. Plus, it is subsidised hugely by government grants. Plus it would be completely uncompetitive without EU protective tariffs on imported salmon.

Very well put Brandan.

And Caz nobody said for 1 minute all the blame is on fish farms for the decline of salmon and sea trout, we all know of these other problems which as I said before are being tackled in there own way. If theres a petition to sign for them we would sign it too. Come on Caz you obviously have connections with fish farms in some way because any conservation minded angler with any cop on would realise the problem they cause and not just the easy target you say they are....

I have studied aquatic sciences and I am a all round angler ie Coarse game and sea for over 35 years, so I do not have 'no idea'. I have never been a commercial fishfarmer.


Bradan wrote:

I'll put it this way - 5 years ago, salmon farming ceased in the bay, and cod were farmed until last autumn. Salmon and sea trout stocks both increased hugely in the catchment. Salmon could be attributed to the cessation of driftnetting, but not sea trout. None of the other factors you mentioned above improved or changed in those 4 years. How do you explain this sudden increase??

Drift netting and draft netting(that still takes place in certain bays), did and does kill large spawing seatrout. I saw one myself last year from a draft net. With drift netting now done awaywith these large spawning sea trout now have a chance to repopulate our rivers again. This has been a positive change. Things obviously have improved, according to you, if the fishery board, and I have no reason to doubt your word, have been better at detecting illegal poaching as well. Spawning streams are being monitored and gravel is being placed in spawning streams to increase spawning areas in river catchments. De-silting is also taking place to impove spawning beds. Bank erosion is also being delt with. Better understanding of juvenile fish feeding has led to monitoring of water looking at plankton makeup. Global warming is altering the plankton makeup of these feeder streams. Change is happening all the time, some good some bad.

I will ask again. If so many papers and so much proof exists against salmon farms why no prosecutions to close them down? As for examples of rivers with fish I can tell you that the Casla and fermoyle river in south connemara had no such sea-trout decline during the years when there was collapses elsewhere.

I would personally support the petition if it asked for the re-introduction of Cod farming in the bay over salmon. This way it would protect the local jobs while allaying fears over the possible environmental impacts. Maybe this is a good compromise. I personally would prefer to see controlled fishfarms rather than the continuing wholsale slaughter of wild fish by the fishing industry.

Caz

the problem with fishfarms is you need too many wild fish to make the pellets to feed the fish in the farms - its not sustainable

I have studied aquatic sciences and I am a all round angler ie Coarse game and sea for over 35 years, so I do not have 'no idea'. I have never been a commercial fishfarmer.


Bradan wrote:

I'll put it this way - 5 years ago, salmon farming ceased in the bay, and cod were farmed until last autumn. Salmon and sea trout stocks both increased hugely in the catchment. Salmon could be attributed to the cessation of driftnetting, but not sea trout. None of the other factors you mentioned above improved or changed in those 4 years. How do you explain this sudden increase??

Drift netting and draft netting(that still takes place in certain bays), did and does kill large spawing seatrout. I saw one myself last year from a draft net. With drift netting now done awaywith these large spawning sea trout now have a chance to repopulate our rivers again. This has been a positive change. Things obviously have improved, according to you, if the fishery board, and I have no reason to doubt your word, have been better at detecting illegal poaching as well. Spawning streams are being monitored and gravel is being placed in spawning streams to increase spawning areas in river catchments. De-silting is also taking place to impove spawning beds. Bank erosion is also being delt with. Better understanding of juvenile fish feeding has led to monitoring of water looking at plankton makeup. Global warming is altering the plankton makeup of these feeder streams. Change is happening all the time, some good some bad.

1. There has been no draft netting in the Connemara district for many years. No draft licences, at all. The nearest draft nets are in the Killary. These draft netters have been required to release all sea trout caught.
2. The vast majority of sea trout in Connemara are, and always were, less than 3lbs, with most being around 1-2lbs. Far too small to be caught in a driftnet.
3. The increase in sea trout stocks was sudden and dramatic, following the year after cod were introduced to the farm and salmon removed. There was no other factor that could have resulted in such an increase.

I will ask again. If so many papers and so much proof exists against salmon farms why no prosecutions to close them down?

See my earlier post. The fisheries board has no power to prosecute. It is the remit of the Marine Institute, which has buried its head in the sand. Unfortunately the MI is a political body, responsible also for promotion of fish farming. Having such a conflict of interests within the same body is not good for environmental protection. Short answer: Money talks.

As for examples of rivers with fish I can tell you that the Casla and fermoyle river in south connemara had no such sea-trout decline during the years when there was collapses elsewhere.

That's absolute rubbish. The Casla River also suffered a dramatic decrease in sea trout stocks, and was almost wiped out as a viable fishery. It too benefited over the last 4 years from the dramatic resurgence in stocks. The fishery manager is a personal friend of mine, and I've seen the figures. Catches fell from 2,745 in 1985 to 140 in 1990. If you don't call that a collapse then you're a dreamer.

I would personally support the petition if it asked for the re-introduction of Cod farming in the bay over salmon. This way it would protect the local jobs while allaying fears over the possible environmental impacts. Maybe this is a good compromise. I personally would prefer to see controlled fishfarms rather than the continuing wholsale slaughter of wild fish by the fishing industry.
Caz

Yes cod farming would be a perfectly acceptable solution. It worked for the last 4 years, the operators didn't go bankrupt, in fact they made money, unfortunately they only had a lease and the owners decided to take it back and farm salmon again. Salmon farming is not financially viable in this country so this is a joke. Unfortunately your second point makes no sense - farmed fish have to be fed fishmeal from wild fish to grow, so expanding fish farming will lead to more slaughter of wild fish.

Caz, you may have studied aquatic science, but you need to re-educate yourself on this issue.

Bradan,
Even if fishfarms were gone tomorrow there would still be fishmeal used in the pig and poultry industry. Fishfarming worldwide accounts for about 15% of fishmeal stocks. I dont want to get into another discussion on fishmeal but when I refer to fishing I meant non specific or targeted fisherys such as bottom trawls which indiscriminatly have huge bycatches of undersized fish and fish which must be thrown back as the quotas are full. Fishfarming is trying to find replacements for fishmeal as it is very expensive. Plant protein such as soya and others are being looked at.

I dont have figures for casla but they were certainly had runs of seatrout during the 90's mainly as they had a sea-trout hatchery and active managemnet of sea-trout enhancement during those bleak years of failing stocks. It just shows that fishery management certainly works adn most fisheries now have managment plans I am glad to say. Whatever about the past there has been a better and welcome run of fish there now yet there still is salomn farm activity all round those bays.

As for salmon farming not being viable, Irish salmon has changed to being fully organicly certified and is achieving over €6 per kg compared to Norwegian salmon at between €3-4/kg. Salmon farming has survived in Ireland since the 70's and has outlasted many industries/production units that have come along after farms.

Your info on where the draft nets are spot on, but so is mine. I saw a 5lb trout taken last year. As you must know its those big fish which are the spawning stock. Talk to any of the old drift net men in connemara, which I have, and they will tell you of the large 'White trout' they used to catch and bring home every year.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this, Bradan, which is fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but please stop insinuating that my opinions are groundless or that I don't know what im talking about. I have not done that to any postings and I will continue to listen to all opinions and hope to have a constructive discussion with varying opinions. If I have come across in any other way I apologise.

Caz

Bradan,
Even if fishfarms were gone tomorrow there would still be fishmeal used in the pig and poultry industry. Fishfarming worldwide accounts for about 15% of fishmeal stocks. I dont want to get into another discussion on fishmeal but when I refer to fishing I meant non specific or targeted fisherys such as bottom trawls which indiscriminatly have huge bycatches of undersized fish and fish which must be thrown back as the quotas are full. Fishfarming is trying to find replacements for fishmeal as it is very expensive. Plant protein such as soya and others are being looked at.

I dont have figures for casla but they were certainly had runs of seatrout during the 90's mainly as they had a sea-trout hatchery and active managemnet of sea-trout enhancement during those bleak years of failing stocks. It just shows that fishery management certainly works adn most fisheries now have managment plans I am glad to say. Whatever about the past there has been a better and welcome run of fish there now yet there still is salomn farm activity all round those bays.

As for salmon farming not being viable, Irish salmon has changed to being fully organicly certified and is achieving over €6 per kg compared to Norwegian salmon at between €3-4/kg. Salmon farming has survived in Ireland since the 70's and has outlasted many industries/production units that have come along after farms.

Your info on where the draft nets are spot on, but so is mine. I saw a 5lb trout taken last year. As you must know its those big fish which are the spawning stock. Talk to any of the old drift net men in connemara, which I have, and they will tell you of the large 'White trout' they used to catch and bring home every year.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this, Bradan, which is fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but please stop insinuating that my opinions are groundless or that I don't know what im talking about. I have not done that to any postings and I will continue to listen to all opinions and hope to have a constructive discussion with varying opinions. If I have come across in any other way I apologise.

Caz

Caz, sorry if you took me up wrong, its just some of the facts you put out were plainly wrong. Such misinformation serves to muddy the issue, and is exactly what the fish farming lobby has tried to achieve over the last 20 years. I agree that the other environmental issues you keep mentioning will have an effect, but they are dwarfed by the effect of sea lice on post-smolt sea trout.
I will leave you with a fact my boss just passed on:
Over the last 20 years salmon farming has received about €100 million in government and EU grant aid and subsidies. The finfish farming industry in Ireland now employs 203 full-time equivalent jobs. Thats about €0.5million per job achieved. Is that value for money? Didn't think so...

See yesterday's Irish Times:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ire ... 65841.html

“Anglers in Ireland have always taken an anti-salmon- farming stance and unfortunately this one-sided argument is counterproductive. The only winner in this conflict scenario is the sea-louse itself. It continues to thrive while salmonid stocks decline, regardless of whether salmon farms are present in a particular locality or not.