Celebrating the catching of undersize species.

Once the anglers treat the fish with respect and release the fish as gently as possible i see no problem in anglers posting undersize species on the site. I have seen "summer" anglers with loads of doggies and small pollock on wicklow pier leaving the fish to die, and when challanged about it they said they were keeping them. An hour later i saw them kicking them back in The point im trying to make is Ashley is preaching to the converted here its the anglers who dont respect the sea or its inhabitants we should be trying to educate.

Shane you cant educate these people ,there not anglers i tend to stay away from anywhere
there,s easy access during the summer, that carry on gets me ould blood boiling

For anyone who has fished next to me in the SAI comps they will back this up.

I always have a bucket of water at my peg. When I catch a fish it and the trace are put into the bucket. After casting out again I’ll take the bucket to the nearest peg and gently unhook the fish measure them and put them back in the bucket to give them a minute or two to revive. Then return them to the water by empting the water and fish at the same time.

In the last comp in Youghal only two fish failed to swim away

In the Munster under 16/21 competitions an angler is not allowed fish unless he/she has a bucket of water at his/her peg.

We complain about foreign anglers keeping under size fish to eat but we never look at ourselves and the amount of under size fish we kill in a rush to win a competition.

i agree with donal domeney as i have fished next to him on several occations and yes he does use a bucket to release all fish this is a humane way to release fish maybe its the way forward

I always have a bucket of water at my peg

Well for what its worth Mr Domeney, I'm a novice match angler, the east coast raiders 2009 being my 1st club and hence 1st match fishing experience, but I'm sure part of our club rules dictated that all anglers must have a bucket of water as part of their equipment for that very reason.

For me a shore report is exactly that a report on your fishing session detailing everything from conditions tide baits time date etc the accuracy of what's reported is a true reflection on what species are available at a given venue at a particular time of year. Of species that are thriving due to numbers being recorded and also what's scarce as in comparison to previous years. If people start to dilute the accuracy of their shore reports to soley include big fish (most of which which will be of breeding age) a lot of valuable information will be lost, and the reports in my opinion will lose credibility and authenticity. if you were doing survey work on a charter for instance would it make any sense to exclude sections of it so only bigger fish were recorded? its worth remembering a lot of marks that get reported are new spots being tried and tested out and the recording of accurate & detailed accounts in my opinion is paramount. 99.9% of the anglers I've fished with respect the fish they catch and the sport. also the species hunt has been mis interputed by some its not about targeting juvenile fish though admittedly some will inevitably be caught by anglers targeting mini species key word being "mini" in order to catch mini species your obviously going to need small hooks. I don't want to get started on trawler waste and dumped fish that's for another debate but anyone who's seen the clips on utube can make up their own minds on where the damage is being done.

Just my 2cents FWIW

Hi Guys,

Again the debate is positive, but the point behind my initial post is still being missed. Why post images of immature fish as against a fine adult specimen? Just because overall stocks of the main commercially exploited species do not get a chance to reach a decent size, do we have to celebrate that fact by posting the little beggers on this site. Why not for example post the fact that on a particular fishing trip a range of the usual undersize species was caught, but time and effort was rewarded with this fine lunker (image of fish). A post of that nature would highlight the best of what sea angling in this country has to offer, while still being a true and accurate reflection of the particular angling session.

The point most people are trying to make is that they dont think the reports section should become a PR event where only the good photos are uploaded. Yes it would be great to log on here and see loads of good fish and hopefully some day that could happen but until then reports should be just that reports without any PR/marketing bias.

If you look at the reports section there are some fine fish reported but the majority of whats being caught are small juvenile fish. You cant sugar coat this for visiting anglers looking at the site, it is what it is.If a stop was put to reports and pics of small fish the ammount of reports each day would fall rapidly and a lot of people log on mainly to have a look at whats being caught and where. In an ideal world we would all be reporting fine catches of large fish but with the large numbers of small fish, i.e. codling and schoolies about maybe in a few years we will be.I do think what Donal is saying about the bucket should be manditory as i have seen very few match anglers doing this and i include myself in that, but it is the way forward, in the rush of match fishing often the fish arnt handled quite as carefully as in a no pressure pleasure session.

Hi Guys,

Again the debate is positive, but the point behind my initial post is still being missed. Why post images of immature fish as against a fine adult specimen? Just because overall stocks of the main commercially exploited species do not get a chance to reach a decent size, do we have to celebrate that fact by posting the little beggers on this site. Why not for example post the fact that on a particular fishing trip a range of the usual undersize species was caught, but time and effort was rewarded with this fine lunker (image of fish). A post of that nature would highlight the best of what sea angling in this country has to offer, while still being a true and accurate reflection of the particular angling session.

Hi Ashley,

I still think that this not a great idea, although I can see your point. Again I raise the argument that has been echoed by Al & Jordan and Conor. The shore reports are an account of a fishing session. Ok most results wont get the mouth watering but from the perspective of comparing marks, fish sizes and species I think that there is a place for photos to be added to a report. Nobody is celebrating tiddlers but if a new species is caught irrelevant of size it is interesting to see a pic to compare or educate what they look like. An if an angler is delighted with a new species and wants to boast about it then the photo is a great way to show off that. Some of the most memorable reports or of people catching a first or beating a personal best. And because everyone is at a different level of experience does not mean that they should be made shy away from posting the fruits of their labour.

While we would all like to be posting reports of week in week out showing success with specimens that is just not the case. That's why reports that do show great catches stir up that drive in us all to stand out in all sorts of weather trying.

Reports of blanks, tiddlers or large bass all have an importance when comparing baits used, weather, tides or distance for different marks. The reality is 99.9% fish caught will be undersize and there is no point in trying to hide the fact that, that is all part of fishing in this country.

From this debate and the previous I have ascertained the vast majority of people are in favor of posting images of both large and small fish. While I have strong feelings around the taking of both large fish (in great numbers) and small fish (in any number) I agree that people have the right to post images. As so many of the other members have stated it is the caring and release of the fish that is of paramount importance. I would guess that most fish caught by anglers from the shore are undersized and this is not about to change in the foreseeable future.

I have to point out I am in favor of posting images large and small fish. If this issue continues to be important to all members on either side of the debate why not ask the moderators to put it to a poll??

From this debate and the previous I have ascertained the vast majority of people are in favor of posting images of both large and small fish. While I have strong feelings around the taking of both large fish (in great numbers) and small fish (in any number) I agree that people have the right to post images. As so many of the other members have stated it is the caring and release of the fish that is of paramount importance. I would guess that most fish caught by anglers from the shore are undersized and this is not about to change in the foreseeable future.

I have to point out I am in favor of posting images large and small fish. If this issue continues to be important to all members on either side of the debate why not ask the moderators to put it to a poll??

if you have joined the species hunt then you will need to post your pictures weather they are of big fish or small one but as long as the fish is not harmed and iver killed straight away for the table or released alive it should not matter if there are picture posted on this site

Small fish cannot be avoided, that is a given. However the amount landed can be reduced by employing particular tactics, methods, or targeting specific species. Sea anglers have a choice to target small fish or not. In the current climate it is possible to go fishing and rarely catch a small fish, with out being a specimen hunter. In the south east where I shore fish, Bass, Wrasse, Pollack, Mullet, Flounder, Smooth Hound, and Tope grow to a large size. Choosing a venue, method, tide, bait, etc will produce quality and sometimes quantity with very few tiddlers. Angling in general even with overfishing is still good, it is the approach and perception that needs to be looked at.

Regarding PR, this site has a lot of overseas visitors, who do build a vision of Ireland based on what they see and read. I believe that, without spoiling peoples fun, consideration of the quality of what is reported in terms of images and wording is important.

Regarding the deliberate targeting of small fish. When the sea angling lobby in this country finally gets legs and the debate turns to bye-catch the commercial sector will argue, with some weight, that sea anglers deliberately target undersize fish and they do not. Forget about tonnage, damage to the environment, etc, it is the principal and perception that counts, and it will bite sea angling hard on the backside. This is the way the commercial lobby works.

I'd have to agree with what most of the lads are saying. The reports section is for reporting on your experience at a certain mark at a certain time and doing this honestly to let other anglers know what to expect or just to rub other peoples noses in it when they're snowed in and cant' get to a mark. For whatever reason you're reporting i think a few photos make it more interesting no matter what size the fish are. It's a catch report, not a tourism advert.

Ashley- I think it would be highly unfair to lure any potential visitors from overseas into a false belief Ireland is full of Monster fish when the fact is this is incorrect information. We are the natives and know marks and tactics and still cannot avoid catching small fish. I am aware the tourism sector in Ireland has taken a damaging hit due to the economic climate and conversion rate but creating a false image of large fish is not a sustainable way of increasing footfall on the shores.

While I do agree certain tactics if employed correctly can reduce undersized fish being caught it will not eradicate this problem entirely. I have never and will never actively target small fish and I am sure quite a lot of the other members will strongly agree with this. I think we should keep posting our pround photo's!

I have merged back with the original thread. I have split off from a particular post, I don't have time to adjudicate on a post by post basis at the moment

1. Leave moderating to mods- if you don't like a post report it.

2. Cut out the name calling and personal insults - even if you have a problem with a post - see 1

3. Stop the infantile babble.

some people just dont(or dont want to) get it.what ashley is saying is do you really really need to post pictures of baby fish(written description would suffice).these pictures will be damaging to our arguement against the commercial sector when the time comes.now i know some target these tiny little tiddlers as can be seen by the elaborate reports containing multiple pictures but there really is no need for pictures.

Speaking about the netting lobby, there is another angle to this thread that is not being focused on.
That is that when we see lots of photos of small fish, and then we go out and catch some small fish, we tend to say to ourselves "well it's not great, but I did as well as anybody else is doing at the moment".

So we learn to accept third rate fishing, and we don't get worked up enough to do anything about why our fishing is that way.
If we had the opportunity to focus more on good fish, we would instead feel that we caught a few tiddlers, and someone out there has taken all the good ones, and whose door should we take this to and protest, complain, lobby, etc about all this.

This is what cod fishing should be about:
http://www.planetseafishing.com/feature ... lanet-cod/
It was like that here not that many years ago.

Now my point is - if new anglers grow up in fishing without ever seeing what it is supposed to be like, they have no base to make comparisons with. How can they know that their fish are being swiped left right and centre?
The catch reports, I am happy with ... they show what is being caught. But they fail to show what should be getting caught, and as a result we are nowhere as enraged with local politicians as we should be, to get something done to repair the damage.

The comment in that article more or less says it all (from a UK perspective) :
If there is any negative at all to emerge from this fantastic trip, then it's the understanding of how truly awful home cod fishing is. And worse than that, the realisation of what might have been had a short-sighted and long dead British government not cheaply surrendered home rights to our own once excellent cod waters.

I feel Ashley's post applies to this but unfortunately I don't have a good suggestion as to how we can have accurate catch reports, and at the same time show what should be caught compared to what actually was caught .... and who is to blame for the difference between the two.
There is a particular type of article that turns up in the papers, where they print a page from the same paper 50 years ago, and comparisons can be made.
Maybe we need someone to do a bit of that in the catch report section, and put it in a sticky where we can be reminded of what fishing will return to if certain abuses are rolled back.

i couldnt care if lads put up reports with small fish or if they target small fish if it makes them happy. but if you make the effort there is plenty of big fish to be cought like fishing at the right time with the right bait and target a certain species of fish that you want to catch like its no good going to a beach and casting out a 3 hook flaper with rag on it hoping to catch a ray you should plan a head do a list of big fish u want to catch and fish for them the right way at the right times and you will catch

Accepting that the perception at the moment is one of undersize fish, lets say that perception was to change to one where there are good sized fish easily available. Then the comercial industry will also use this as a reason to increase their quotas/fishing.
We (anglers) should be doing what is right for the long term not just to change a perception. Safely returning fish, proper handling of fish, avoid targeting speices during spawning etc.
Enforcement of regulations is also required just look at the effect of drink driving/speed enforcement on road deaths unfortunately there is no fear of being caught in the current enforcement approach, this sadly is the only way to get people to follow laws/ regulations.

[KERRY1]

I have been reading this with great interest and so I felt that as everyone is entitled to their opinion that I would express mine.
Any reports & pictures that are put up by someone should always be encouraged & welcomed rather than criticised.
I personally enjoy reading the reports and looking at the pictures of what has been caught regardless of what the size of the fish is.
I agree with what Dfella said - Why have a report section at all then? The reality is 99.9% fish caught will be undersize and there is no point in trying to hide the fact that, that is all part of fishing in this country.
The purpose of posting pictures is to outline the range of fish that are being caught.
The size of the fish caught isn’t important and that isn’t what we are celebrating when we post our reports, comments or replies.
What is important to the majority of us and what we all appreciate is the effort someone has made to catch the fish in the first place (buying the tackle, the travelling involved to get to the mark, collecting the bait & standing for sometimes hours waiting to catch something etc) and we shouldn’t be made to feel like we are doing something wrong by putting a picture up of a fish just because it isn’t seen to be of a size that is ‘acceptable’.
We all share the same passion for fishing and we are proud of the species we catch regardless of what size it is and why shouldn’t we be?
As long as we don’t promote or celebrate the killing of these smaller fish and continue to educate others and ourselves when we can the importance of realising them back in then I can’t see what harm is being done by taking a picture of them and putting them up on a report.
Young children especially should be encouraged and taught to be proud of what they catch no matter what size the fish is. To suggest that any pictures of smaller fish should be removed from a report is ridiculous! What type of message is that giving the younger people on the site? That if they don’t catch a big fish or a specimen that their efforts and what they have caught is a waste of time and shouldn’t be posted up on a report, I don’t think so!
I have friends on this site who have posted up pictures of their young children with a small fish that they have caught and I have really loved seeing how happy and proud they are.
Kids don’t care what size it is and neither do I, it’s just great to see them catching at all and if it became the case that these pictures weren’t put up because the fish is seen to be too small then I would be very disappointed.
As Al said - if the shore report section ever got to the point where a child's pictures were going to be removed by the moderators due to them being considered too small I'm afraid I'd have to up sticks and post elsewhere too.
To suggest that the moderator’s start removing pictures of ‘undersized fish’ that are put on is a bad idea too, that isn’t their role/job. As corbyeire said - it would be a nightmare to police.
I think they have already enough to do, never mind that don’t you!
I just want to finish by saying that this site has been a great source of information and help to me and others and the work and time everyone put’s in to keep it going has to be congratulated.
Keep up the good work everyone!

Last edited by KERRY1 on Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.