Bass on the South East Coast

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Bass on the South East Coast

Postby JimH » Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:33 pm

This is a reply to a question asked by 'Hammers' in a previous thread regarding bass.

H - i dont tag fish but i do feel very strongly that they are definetly residential - we have caught the same fish several times during one summer often not at the same location - it is possible to identify a small number by unique marks.

i have attached three charts for info - water temp, fly info table, and no of fish caught on fly. You can draw many conclusions from the fly chart, but this is not definitive only based on the fly caught fish recorded. I dont have a strong inclination as to the patterns of the various 'baits' that bass feed on. Personally i think they will eat anything that is presented to them in the correct manner and some times a better presentation can be all that counts be that colour, depth, speed or size.

I dont believe they become exclusive feeders or fixed on one type of bait source. Based on the fish that we have killed we have found shrimps, sandeel, sprat, mackerel, crab, gobies, mullet and immature flatfish inside.
I think they are opportunistic and faced with food of various types will eat that which is easiest to catch.

I do think that size of fly in relation to time of year may be important - small and sparse at the beginning and larger towards the end.

I tend to concentrate around clouser and deceiver patterns - i dont like sandeel patterns we also fish with crabs on sinking lines, shrimps, and other variations.

I have tried to add a sense of 'Irishness' to match the hatch of local baitfish so we have built tan and brown and grey and green into our flies, I am strongly influenced by Ray Bondorews thinking.

I do believe that a white and chartreuse or a white deceiver or clouser will catch bass on most occasions.
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Postby dave armstrong » Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:32 pm

Hell of alot to think about there Jim!
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Bass on the South East Coast

Postby JimH » Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:37 pm

D

Dont think of it as written in stone - its just observations over this years catches in Wexford. The numbers are customer catches not personal returns so they may look big!

The colours have really made an impression on me and the depth of the presentation is vital.

Jim
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Postby Tom H » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:42 pm

Good stuff there Jim. Yep bass and other fish seen to be residential from what I have seen and read. Know off one mullet that comes in to same bay on every tide June/ end Oct very easy to spot has a big white mark on its back ( can't bring myself to fish for it now more like a pet :lol: :lol: can more or less hand feed it :!: I to use a lot deceivers and clousers 3"-6" and the odd popper but cant for the life of me catch on the popper :?: May I ask what crab pattens you use feel some times that Iam losing out by not using them. Love Ray Bondorews book think its one of the better ones out there.. Tom
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Bass on the South East Coast

Postby JimH » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:07 am

These are some fotos of bait fish that i took this august in Wexford - these are the type of fish we try to imitate with our flies. Could any person identify accurately what they are if possible?

Tom - regarding the crab patterns we dont use them a lot but the bonefish patterns from Sportfish size 2's all work pretty well. Fast sinking lines and a bit of ethafoam attached to the fly to make them suspend a little (trial and error) and then a slow retrieve or the flatfish techinique with a bit more foam and then a strip and stop.

Tom have you tried big white poppers (sorry for asking im sure you have)
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Postby deno » Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:54 am

Jim, In the first chart that you presented. Is the "zero" count for the months between January and May as a result of a lack of fishing or a lack of fish feeding? I don't know if it would be possible but it would be nice to see a similar graph showing, "outtings/hours" against fish caught. People say that bass are annual residents and if they are is it the cold that stops them feeding on bait fish or is the the fisherman who cannot or do not want to fish in the cold adverse conditions? If you were to map air temperature against hours fished, I'm sure that you would get a very strong correlation.
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Postby JimH » Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:37 pm

Hi deno

Looking at the temp graph you could draw a line across from the 10 degrees mark and simply say no bass fishing below this line for time indicated and you wouldn’t be wrong. Of course you will get the odd exception – that is accepted. Or you could say no bass between January and May - But ‘why’ is the question?

Again i can only speak out of experiences here at Wexford for the following water temp ranges as described to me some time back by a fisheries biologist as best as i can remember

At 5 degrees its the minimum acceptable temp for their existence or range
Below 10 degrees they seem to enter a state of suspension - slow metabolism
Between 10-12 you can catch them on diving lures and sinking fly lines
Between 12-15 you can catch them on surface lures and flies and most other lures
Above 16 degrees oxygen starts to becomes an issue and they are not present/ or feed in cooler waters

I only know or can report on what i have experienced or witnessed and logged from other reliable data sources. Having tried to fish for bass in the January - May period in Wexford as yielded very poor results – that’s over say 20 years of concerted effort. Yes I have caught fish but not many and certainly not enough to bring International customers into the country.

My business is based around the fact that there is a quality fish that is ‘catchable’ on a fly/lure whilst remaining challenging to the fly/lure angler and is a worthwhile and beautiful quarry. I have a calculation that if the CPUE (catch per unit effort) falls below three then I don’t operate the business – so at the moment it operates from June to mid October. June and July were below that margin this year so it was very difficult and I advised many customers to stay at home.

So from an international planning point of view – I had loads of fish in April and November but no plans for international customers. During June and July I had plans for International customers but no fish. Such is life!

All I can say Deno is that it appears - bass in Wexford operate as fish the way we like them too between May and October – between November and possibly mid January there is a likelihood of some good bass fishing and conditions exist from time to time to create this fishing. From mid January to April conditions don’t exist that permit them to operate at their best – where they are or what they do I don’t know.
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Postby teacher » Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:27 pm

Some very interesting information there Jim. Would be interesting to compare average CPUE during the year for different locations around the coastline.

I assume the colour information could be applied to lure fishing as well ...
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Postby JimH » Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:22 pm

J

Call me sad if you like but from the data it is possible to pull CPUE from the locations that i fish in Wexford - (2007 only and fly only) over different times.

i would love to know what its like for other regions of the country though

this is the calculation that i use (not very scientific)

(Number of fish caught /(Hrs spent fishing X No Anglers X days))/10

My expectation is (depending on normal factors)

FLY = 3.5 - CPUE
LURE = 15.5 - CPUE

regarding colors of lures - there some evidence to suggest that colours are not as significant but it is definetly a factor
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Postby dave armstrong » Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:27 pm

Why do you think colour of lure is not as significant as it is for fly Jim? Thinking back to an article of yours somewhere that said about finding a couple of lures on a beach of a particular colour and i thought your enquiries locally found they matched was it bait fish in the area or something? Does the lure have a better in built presentation than the fly which means the fly needs a better colour match to make up for the poor presentation? Or is that my subconcious tellling me i need to work on my presentation?!!!!
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Postby lumpy » Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:04 am

have been reading this with quite alot of interest, especially with regards fly colour. from the past 3 years ive concluded i could get away with 2 patterns, a size 1 white gurgler for surface work and a white with black and olive backed hollow fleye in different sizes. these 2 flys have caught me 85% of bass ive had in the past 4 years.

ive concluded that it is the action and sillouette of the fly which is the most important. the hollow fleye has a great action in the water, every strip it pulsates very enticingly, and when tied with a relatively heavy epoxied head it tends to fish in a sink and draw fashion. i have on 2 occasions stalked bass with them and one small strip and stop the bass has engulfed them quite agressively. olive and black over white gives quite a nice sandeel colouration. as well as resembeling, sprat and other white bait...

as has been wellm pointed out when targeting specific areas is establishing the feeding patters of fish. generally these are quite specific. one mark i fish will produce fish from half an hour before lw to 45mins after, outside these periods i have yet to catch a fish, this is especially true between july and september. outside this period bass tend to feed in a more confined period, i.e half an hour around lw..

as regards time of year i wwould have to agree with jim.. from my experiences ive noticed 2 distinct periods of increased bass catches on my behalf, one between the final week of june and the last week of july and again the 2nd last week of september to the middle of november...of these 2 periods the average size of fish is far greater in the second period but numbers are slightly lower than the early summer fish..again with regards fly size smaller flies proove more succesful in june/july while later in the year flies up to 10 inches fish better...

time of the day i have also found to vary with the different times of the year. in the mid summer period fish i find are quite slow to feed out side the dawn/dusk periods, especially if these periods co-incides with specific tide periods..the opposite i find occurs in the late september/october period. . apparently sandeel activity is greater at dawn and dusk in the summer monthes due to the decreased light levels and thus decreased sillohette and shadows..the converse is also true as with a decrease in light levels the basses ambush ability is heightened..why fish tend to feed quite heavily throughout the day during the later of the year i'm unsure althought the possible decrease in metabolism and subsequent inability to hunt as effectively in the following winter, i.e break up and offshore movements of baitfish and decreased visability may mean they have to bulk up...
shore species 2008(25):dogfish(3.1lbs), bull huss (12lb 2oz), bass, shore rockling, coalie, whiting, pollack, conger (22.4lbs),flounder, thick lipped mullet (4.8lbs),turbot,ling (11.2lbs),ballan wrasse(4.5lbs), cuckoo wrasse, pouting, poor cod, cod (9.5lbs), dab, 3 bearded rockling, long spined scorpion fish, corkwing wrasse, plaice, trigger fish, sea trout, garfish


regards neil

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Postby dave armstrong » Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:23 am

Any chance you could stick up pictures of those flies lumpy?
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Postby lumpy » Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:02 am

i'll try and post them tomorro
shore species 2008(25):dogfish(3.1lbs), bull huss (12lb 2oz), bass, shore rockling, coalie, whiting, pollack, conger (22.4lbs),flounder, thick lipped mullet (4.8lbs),turbot,ling (11.2lbs),ballan wrasse(4.5lbs), cuckoo wrasse, pouting, poor cod, cod (9.5lbs), dab, 3 bearded rockling, long spined scorpion fish, corkwing wrasse, plaice, trigger fish, sea trout, garfish


regards neil
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Postby dave armstrong » Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:15 am

Cool. thanks. :D
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Bass on the South East Coast

Postby JimH » Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:15 am

Looking at what Neil has concluded and the colour chart I dont think we are worlds apart. Neils favourite surface fly a white gurgler and streamer pattern of olive white and black. On the colour chart its a close one between an all white pattern and the gr/blk/bl colours.

The only obvious thing that stikes me is the size of fly, Neil catches his fish on smaller flies than what we fish with here in Wexford. I do agree that the profile and 'swimming action' needs to be accurate and lifelike. I really noticed that this year that Lure fishing in crytal clear water with lots and lots of follows is quite frustrating. Using the change up change down/retrieve/stop tricks all failed, well not failed entirely...

At times a change to the fly outfished the lure

Dave I do think colour is important to lure fishing its just not quite as significant as i think it may be in fly fishing where you need to have all the pluses lined up (even if they are physcological). Generally speaking SWFF is tough.

Lures 'swim' in what we call a lifelike manner
Lures have depth indicators (diving vanes)
Lures have big water pushing abilities
Lures have loud attractive noises
Lures 'look' like fish (really good ones)
Lures can be cast a long way covering more ground - faster and easier
Lures are presented more easily to the fish more often and regularly

Flies have many of these factors but not all of them and are not as such 'provocative' or 'causitive'. All of these triggers force a fish (or a greater number of fish) to respond to a greater extent than a fly might make them respond.

another one of the challenges of fly fishing on the wexford coast is the timings and your decision making. As Neil mentioned 45 minutes either side of a tide in one area and he experiences good fishing, miss that window and.....all the flies or lures in the world wont work!
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Postby lumpy » Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:54 pm

interesting about the fly sizes, in the past 2 years ive spent more time fishing shallower wadable beaches than deeper rocky coastline marks. i down sized the size of fly i used as i had been getting many follows and short takes but very few solid hook ups. a change down in fly size (no reason, just out of experimentation) from 6inch to 3 1/2 and my hook ups increased dramatically.. i still do use bigger flies on the deeper rocky coastlines as bass tend to lye just above the kelp and the sillouette of the bigger fly tends to induce more takes, as does a popper, i.e. gurgler,slider or similar.

as regards colour,looking at my diary for the past 2 years the following is concluded

72% of fish on 4 inch black/olive over white deciever/hollow fleye
6% on above fly but with blue over white
8% white gurgler
4% on 6 inch zonker sandeel
4% on 8 inch abels anchovy (mackeral fly)
6% other flies

i must admit there is a certain amount of biased in this as the 5 flies i had the majority of the fish on are obviously the 5 flies i use the most often
shore species 2008(25):dogfish(3.1lbs), bull huss (12lb 2oz), bass, shore rockling, coalie, whiting, pollack, conger (22.4lbs),flounder, thick lipped mullet (4.8lbs),turbot,ling (11.2lbs),ballan wrasse(4.5lbs), cuckoo wrasse, pouting, poor cod, cod (9.5lbs), dab, 3 bearded rockling, long spined scorpion fish, corkwing wrasse, plaice, trigger fish, sea trout, garfish


regards neil
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Postby lumpy » Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:05 pm

here's a pic of the hollow fleye, this is a quite heavily dressed version but the quality of the picture is quite poor, hope it gives you an idea of it.

its tied on a 2/0 tiemco 811S and is about 4 inchs long
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shore species 2008(25):dogfish(3.1lbs), bull huss (12lb 2oz), bass, shore rockling, coalie, whiting, pollack, conger (22.4lbs),flounder, thick lipped mullet (4.8lbs),turbot,ling (11.2lbs),ballan wrasse(4.5lbs), cuckoo wrasse, pouting, poor cod, cod (9.5lbs), dab, 3 bearded rockling, long spined scorpion fish, corkwing wrasse, plaice, trigger fish, sea trout, garfish


regards neil

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Postby dave armstrong » Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:22 pm

Get the idea alright. To the vice..... :)
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Postby lumpy » Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:30 pm

put up a better clearer pic above (p.s. sorry for hijacking your thread jim :roll: )
shore species 2008(25):dogfish(3.1lbs), bull huss (12lb 2oz), bass, shore rockling, coalie, whiting, pollack, conger (22.4lbs),flounder, thick lipped mullet (4.8lbs),turbot,ling (11.2lbs),ballan wrasse(4.5lbs), cuckoo wrasse, pouting, poor cod, cod (9.5lbs), dab, 3 bearded rockling, long spined scorpion fish, corkwing wrasse, plaice, trigger fish, sea trout, garfish


regards neil
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Postby brianbru » Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:36 pm

Tom H wrote:Good stuff there Jim. Yep bass and other fish seen to be residential from what I have seen and read. Know off one mullet that comes in to same bay on every tide June/ end Oct very easy to spot has a big white mark on its back ( can't bring myself to fish for it now more like a pet :lol: :lol: can more or less hand feed it :!: I to use a lot deceivers and clousers 3"-6" and the odd popper but cant for the life of me catch on the popper :?: May I ask what crab pattens you use feel some times that Iam losing out by not using them. Love Ray Bondorews book think its one of the better ones out there.. Tom


where is that bay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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