specimen coalfish

does anyone apart from me think that the killing of 94 specimen coalfish
and claimed in the specimen report is wrong i would say they where all killed because off the depth they where caught at.it smacks of commercial angling to me.this kind of thing has to stop.if it was bass that where killed there would be uproar.the isfc should hang their heads in shame over this one.i have nothing against the isfc but i think that they should look at it.how do other anglers feel about this.

the majorityof these coalies were caught in around 250ft of water and correct me if i'm wrong they rarely survive, even if they do swim off. the change in pressure from these depths causes alot of irreversible damage which generally results in mortality, also the average size of these fish on the wrecks down round here is quite large and have talked to skippers who have told me that they have had up to 18 specimans in a trip 5 years ago

when i was in collage i spoke to an ictiologist that was visiting about this.he claimed that it is not the protruding stomach or swimbladder that has the effect but the effect that a large cahnge in pressure has on the transport of oxygen from the water to circulation(as in humans there is a very fine pressure gradient that causes oxygen to pass from air, into the blood stream in the lungs), when this happens the fish can become asphyxiated even if they do initially swim awa. it has also been proposed that like when humans suffer from acute altitude sickness which can cause pressure increses in the cranial cavity, leading to complications regarding the brain, the same is proposed to happen with fish.....how true this is i am unsure??

Yes, that sure is a lot of coalies. What is the alternative? You will notice that many of the fish are taken by foreign anglers. The skippers involved are very successful. They are also running successful businesses. How much of this is down to the fact of the possibility of catching a specimen coalfish? Surely the lure of catching a fish of a lifetime is what lures many foreign anglers to our shores.

The IFSC is on a hiding to nothing on this one. If they raise the weight then nobody from any other part of the country has a chance of catching a specimen. The smaller coalies will still be caught in the quest for a larger fish.

The success of the ISFC’s work has contributed greatly to angling tourism in this country. The annual report has become a bible for anglers who want to catch that fish of a lifetime! Want a coalie: Kinsale, Courtmac or Union Hall. Spurdog: Redbay or Ballycastle or Kenmare Bay. Rockling: just pm Ronald!

As for the coalies, they do not survive. I must say we tend to fish for them but once we have caught a few specimens we stop. That’s easy for us because there’s a good chance we will get another crack off them another time. Not so easy if you have made the effort and travelled great distances to attempt to catch one.

As for the fish after, I can only speak for our fish; each coalfish was filleted and was distributed between friends and family. I have never had as much feedback about any fish. People were blown away by the taste, quality and texture of the fish.
If you've never experienced the thrill of catching a big coalie you should put it on your list of things to do before you die! The coalie is dead, long live the coalie!

I would agree with Jim on this one. These specimen fish are helping to create a thriving sportfishing community that could help greatly when trying to point out to our blind TD's the value of sportfishing in this country.

I may be wrong, but if the fish was to be released does the fish not have to be weighted on land. If so, It's just not practical for C&R. At least these fish are not been traweled for with other species suffering in the bycatch. This is very selective fishing and from the amount of specimen coalfish each year seem to be very sustainable. And also, in Jim's case and perhaps the others, the fish are been kept for the pot, which is the important part.

I would however like to see Jim and a few of the guys that catch these fish try the various different de-gassing methods so we can get an idea on what works. This way we can give advice for those fish that do not make specimen weight and anglers want to put back.

Kev

I know from fishing for cod in norway that even fish from deep water can go back sucessfully if you stop reeling the fish in at about 20 feet and wait for the bubbles to stop coming out of their asses ,basically a release valve . just means no need for sticking needles into the fish .
Dont know if it works for coalies as i've never had the pleasure of hooking a big one (pb 13lb) but i'm sure jim could experiment for us .
As for the amount of coalies kept ,i think any boat angler fishing deep water has to keep a fair few of their fish due to the pressure changes ,the only alternative is to fish shallow areas and that sort of defeats the purpose of fishing from a boat ,as you are using it to access areas unfishable from the shore .
What the specimen fish committee are doing is recording catches and producing a book to show were certain species are to be caught and at what time of year ,this also aids research into fish size/stocks and keep a record of any new species of fish starting to show around our coasts .Pretty good work for an organisation that relies on donations .

nobody answered the question is it wrong to kill so many fish .if not then holiday anglers and irish anglers should by your definition kill every specimen fish to help the ifsc with their valabule work.why is their a law for one fish and not another.bass recieve protection.if anglers keep killing coalfish they will end up like the bass.i think anglers and the isfc are being very shortsighted.

personally i dont see a problem with the amount of coalies ratified with the specimen fish committe ,if they raised the weight youd still be having to knock the same fish on the head as these fish obviously dont do well coming up from deep water ,the only alternative would be to ban fishing for them ! the skippers rely on alot of foreign tourists coming to fish for these big fish ,but in the process you still catch smaller coalies ,up here in the north the chances of getting a specimen coalie is pretty much nil ,so to give everyone a chance the weight is kept as it is ,raising the weight wont save the coalie ,it might even make it worse as people would have to fish more to get a specimen .
I know a few people dont like the idea of "trophy" fish weights ,but it encourages anglers to raise their game to specifically try and catch a fish above the average size instead of just going fishing for a few hours and see what turns up .

I can see your point Greg but just to throw another into the mix... Are coalies in particular under pressure? It appears to me that every year from late September on the beaches become infested with juvenile coalfish, with some reaching over 40cm but the majority between 18 and 35. Any time I fish over wrecks and drop bait down larger coalies of 3-5lbs can be pulled up in strings and are more a pest than anything else. Just a thought thats all.

Having briefly worked on commercial boats, I've seen the amount of fish that comes up in a trawl or gillnet. Anything done or not done by leisure anglers is completely irrelevant in practical terms to a species fished commercially.

the CSO have an online database of Sea Fish Landings by Fish Species

http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Dialog/ ... cs/&lang=1

the most recent i can find for saithe 1354 tonnes live weight 2002

98 coalfish x 15lbs = about 1500lbs = about 700kg about 0.05% of the commercial catch (2002)

In norway this year we watched a trawler leave port steam for about 30mins until a shoal of coalies were found ,shoot a net ,circle most of the shoal ,then start hauling the net to the side of the vessel ,as the net came alongside they used a vacum to suck up the trapped fish ,once the hold was filled they went back to port , I dont know how often these guys do this ,but they probabley lifted more fish in one run than all the charter boats on the south coast would keep in a year .
I know trawlers lift a massive amount of undersized fish from our coasts and these are just discarded back over the side before they even get a chance to breed,these are the people doing most damage to fish stocks ,not anglers,so as jw says what anglers catch is literally a drop in the ocean compared to the commercials .

In answer to your question Greg, Is the killing of 94 coalies wrong? No, I don't think so. Especially if all of the fish were appreciated and eaten. If they were all killed on a couple of trips then yes it would be senseless. However 94 coalies over a 12-month period is not a huge amount, especially when you consider the total amount of rod hours that went into catching them or trying to catch them.

On the subject of returning fish. Many smaller coalies will return fine, especially if they are not manhandled. Cod on the other hand seem to be made of sterner stuff. I've seen 19lb cod swim away from the boat without a problem. As to what happens after they swim away I don’t know!

I agree completely with JW's point regarding commercial fishing. One local gill netter or a boat from Newlyn can clean out a south coast wreck on a single trip. How these coalies have survived thus far amazes me.

On Greg's point about killing specimen fish. The IFSC have rigid standards. It causes us boat people a lot of grief. All fish must be weighed on land. This I can understand completely. It causes a dilemma for the angler that catches a specimen fish: Are you going to keep the fish, is it worth killing the fish? Generally if it’s a species that will be eaten then I have no problem. If I can weigh the fish on land and return the fish alive, especially an inedible (though the lines are blurred as to what constitutes an inedible nowadays!) then I will. Such is the case with blonde rays in Cork Harbour. The day will come when I manage to catch a specimen tope, but it will be caught where its possible for me to weigh the fish on land and return the fish alive.

Bottom line for me and specimens is: I like the IFSC standards. I like to chase specimen fish. I like the idea of putting my specimens on record. If I got a euro for the amount of times I hear “Oh I’ve caught loads of specimens but I don’t claim them” I’d be a millionaire!

You have to take a step away and define what a specimen fish is? It is a fish of a lifetime for most anglers, so why shouldn't they get recognition for it. If Greg is still worried about the numbers of coalies in this instance that were claimed think how many fish that didnt make the assigned weight that are killed by anglers every year. Is he suggesting that only fish that are specimen size are killed and every other coalie is returned to fight another day.

Jim,
head up the East coast if you want a specimen Tope. They are all nearly specimens! :lol: Or would that just be blasphemy for a Cork man? :shock: :lol: :lol:

Now Now Luke,
In this time of inclusion, tolerance etc. of course I'd travel up the East Coast. I'm sure immigration control at Mitchelstown will let us back in to the Peoples Republic provided we weren't away too long! Lets face it you did show there were some grand fish in the Irish sea last year!

If you have the location I have the false beard/moustache/nose/glasses...

We’ll swing over to pm now!
:lol:

Now that I've been reactivated, a couple of points to ponder :
1. it's not so long since you had to submit the fish body [for identification] but now the ISFC accept photos for many species. I know they wont accept fish weighed on board, but surely a reasonable figure could be calculated on a length/girth basis. I would still insist on the actual body being submitted in the event of a potential record claim.
2. It's been 30 years since they imposed a moratorium on claims for Common Skate [ giving away my age here !!] but I doubt it has had any effect on the number of angler's fishing for them. The fact that they are returned alive is a totally separate issue.

Boyd.

could the isfc not reintroduce the common skate to the list, but work on the charts for weight calculation to be carried out on board?

You wold think a size to weight system would be doable. I think the fact that these are an increasingly rare fish is the problem.

I do wish the ISFC would move to a length based system for all fish - it'd get round this issue of having to land fish to weigh them. In this day and age of ever decreasing stocks, it seems like the logical thing to do. Maybe after a few more fish have to come off the list due to scarcity, they'll consider a change....

Last time I spoke to IFSC people about size to weight lists they were none too impressed with them. I think that accuracy was the issue. Accuracy is the issue weighing on boats as well. A list would probably be fine where a fish is well above the specimen weight. Close to the weight it could get tougher. Small species would be a problem as well.

The latest buzzword is genetic finger printing. It’s starting for the hybrids (due to the byelaw) and should expand. I was waiting for the awards to enquire if weight can be determined as well as identification of species from the print. At that stage we’ll see where things go.

I don’t know if it the way that there is more info around due to the Internet but it would appear that there are loads of common skate around. Up north the reports are regular, clew bay the same. West cork is producing plenty as well. It is sad to see undulates off the list. You can rest assured that anglers did not fish them into scarcity.

Even if the printing worked, we're still back to fish like coalies, ling, cuckoos and such that don't always survive.