Fish ID please

Had a look through Fish listing on the site and cannot see anything similar.
Any idea what it is?
Thanks

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short horn scorpionfish

Thanks Kieran

its not a type of monkfish is it ??

Agree with Kieran, aka 'short spined sea scorpion', Myoxocephalus scorpius.

Lads how can u tell the difference between a short and a long spined sea scorpion ?
Cheers , ps sorry for hijacking post

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Cheers donal

Hi Paul,

Thats a great ID diagram Donal has put up. These fish can still pose problems though with photos, eg the white barbels on the rear of the big lip of the Taurulus bubalis (absent on M. scorpius). Its a great IDing aid but the correct angle is necessary to see if its there or not and more troublesome is the fact that if a T bubalis is viewed out of water the wee barbel isnt readily apparent as it sticks to the lip and almost vanishes. In water from the right angle its usually very visible.

The fish are slightly anatomically different but the only way in my opinion to get familiar is to view many pics of each. I see many TB in my waters and very very few MS. The above fish is the one I dont see very often, its years since Ive had one to hand though friends have caught and photographed them even this year. When I saw this pic I just knew it was the other boy, ie not TB which is the one I can go and find in rockpools at any low tide.

There are various pictures of these fish on websites wrongly IDed and labelled under the wrong scientific name, just warning you if you do go looking at images, to look very carefully for the distinguishing features because you will see eg, white barbels on fish titled Myoxocephalus scorpius on current websites, which is wrong and only causes confusion. There are probably some images which cant be definitively IDed due to the angle and maybe bad quality or fins collapsed with fish at rest, that kind of detail.

Cheers man appreciate the info
The reason I asked was I caught two of them over the weekend , one of them was small and red and the other one was a lot bigger 20 odd cm and very dark and thought they might be different species ? I'll post the picks and see if they can be id'ed.

Paul,

from the descriptions it sounds like you might have a small TB and a slightly larger Ms, BUT thats just going by size and guestimating. Small and red certainly sounds like Tb but thwe othjer boy could also be one, having said that in my experience 20cm would be a fairly big Tb, I wonder would others have the same experience. I suppose most of the Tb I do see are juveniles from rockpools so that would explain me only having seen them under the 20cms, mature ones caught on rod and line would probably avreage a bit bigger than what Im used to. Ms are often 30cm, bigger. Ms grow to 5lb in arctic waters but I dont think TB ever reaches that sort of weight?

Cathal.

Marine life Information Network page on Myoxocephalus scorpius pffering 2 images of Taurulus bubalis under the title of Myoxocephalus scorpius. The white barbels are clear to see especially on the close up of the reddish maroon fish. Without question a Tb, Long spined sea scorpion. Confusing stuff for viewers interested in seeing the differences in these 2 species. The main pic and the wee black fish look like 2 proper M. scorpius.

http://www.marlin.ac.uk/speciesinformat ... esID=3843#

Edit- Bull Rout is just another English name for the species, usually refered to by us anglers as Short Spined Sea Scorpion.

so what ya think ?
sorry pics are bad

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both the same species, long spined I guess, both have 8 spines in the first dorsal fin
the colour difference would relate to the habitat.

Yeah, agree with Donal, they both look like Long spineds (Taurulus bubalis), I think the wee barbel can be seen on the darker 20cm fish sticking out from the rear of the big upper lip.

I just stuck up that link to Marlin earlier to show how these fish are regularly wrongly IDed, spose it goes to show its easy enough done, they are very similar. But it doesnt make it not a pain in the arse when you are trying to ID a fish and learn a bit about similar species, websites having such mistakes. It took me a few years and several changes of mind to ID one particular fish I got in 2007, last winter I found the same one used on a website under the wong name, mis-IDed by a very knowledgeable man who I shared the pic with back in 07.

Cheers lads much appreciated

Lads how can u tell the difference between a short and a long spined sea scorpion ?
Cheers , ps sorry for hijacking post

Ive done a bit of reading and online research into sea scorpions....... so here goes.

As already understood, there are 2 main species that inhabit our coastline:
the short-spined sea scorpion (SSSS) Myoxocephalus scorpius
and, the long-spined sea scorpion (LSSS) Taurulus bubalis

There seems to be several different distinguishing characteristics between the different species to tell them apart:

1. spine on cheek - the LSSS usually has one particularly long spine on its cheek, as well as a number of smaller ones. however, for the SSSS these spines should be more or less equal in lenght
2. barbel on corner of mouth - present on the LSSS but not on the SSSS
3. underbelly markings - the belly of the SSSS most often has large spots (particularly on the males during the breeding season)
4. bony spines/lumps near lateral line - present on the SSSS but not on the LSSS
5. gills - in the LSSS the gills are joined to the throat whereas in the SSSS they tuck in
6. size - the SSSS is the bigger species reaching lengths of 30cm. the LSSS rarely exceeds 18cm
7. water depth - SSSS found from 2m-60m depth. LSSS found on the shore down to 30m and will be the most common species caught by anglers from the shore

When you study it that bit more it becomes apparent that these two species really should appear quite distinguishable, it just takes a but of practice to learn the differences.
The image posted by donal above is ideal for visualising the differences. in particular, you can see the small lumps on the flanks of the SSSS - in Donal's image they are located below the dorsal fin and around the lateral line - they are not on the LSSS. It is also easy to see the large spots on the underbelly of the SSSS.

As a point of note, the colours of all sea scorpions can vary greatly depending on their natural surroundings. they can range from bright red to green or brown, and have mottling of black and/or white. colourings are not particularly a distinguishing feature

also, watch out for Micrenophrys lilljeborgii, the Norway bullhead/sea scorpion, that no-one has mentioned here yet. They too can be found in our waters but are v.small, they average about 5-6cm in length, and they are supposed to be common in our shallow waters and rock pools. This species has also the currently accepted name Taurulus lilljeborgii, they differ from the LSSS Taurulus bubalis in that they have the barbel at the corner of their mouth AND they have the bony lumps along their flanks.

So, what species do you think the fish in the picture below is?!
the fish below was caught by a relative of mine 2 years ago from the north coast. it was a big fish for a sea scorpion, between 25-30cm, but the interesting thind was that it had a huge spike on top of it's head beside the dorsal fin! it is clearly visible in the picture.
i have not seen any reference to this spike anywhere during my research into these species.. but am guessing that spikes/spines can appear randomly in size and location around the head?
my guess is thats its a SSSS because of its size, lack of barbel, and lumps along its flanks.

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I always thought that fish of yours was an Ms Charlie, size of 30cm being one of the main resons why. Just looking at it again Im not 100% sure what it is to be honest, things say this and things say that, the one thing thats throwing me just now (if it is a reliable IDing feature as it is meant to be) is the absence of a gap between the 2 dorsal fins which MS is supposed to have........tbc!

I cant see the large spine you mention near the dorsal fin? The spines on these fish dont grow randomly, they have an orientation which is pretty standard, the spines grow from the top of the the large operculum cover just to the rear of the head.

The Norway Bullhead isnt mentioned in general in discussions about Ms and Tb as it isnt that readily confusable with these 2 species. Nor is the Armed/Armoured Bullhead/Pogge, again it is anatomically different and not readily confused. The best illustration of a norway bullhead I could find didnt seem to have gill cover spines at all anything akin to MS and Tb. Good pics of Micrenophrys lilljeborgii seem to be thin on the ground.

The colour of T.bubalis is very variable and changes in a short time when you place the fish onto a different coloured surface (alive and in water). But when you view a good number of live specimens you quickly see that they tend to be one of about 6 or 7 colourations when found. Red (true red not burgundy or maroon) is one of the common colours that live Tb are found.

There are images online (which I viewed a long time back) of Ms caught in the Arctic circle which are way bigger than 30cm. Fish in anglers hands that could be 50-60cm in length, 5,6lb? Big beautiful fish.

here's the big spike on the top:
(that is a spike i can assure you, i was keeping well away from it)

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the one thing thats throwing me just now (if it is a reliable IDing feature as it is meant to be) is the absence of a gap between the 2 dorsal fins which MS is supposed to have...

Ive never heard of an IDing gap between the 2 dorsal fins myself whilst reading through a lot of stuff. and in the diagram above there doesnt seem to be a big gap between the dorsal fins for either species.
either way, im just still not 100% sure myself..

There are images online of Ms caught in the Arctic circle which are way bigger than 30cm. Fish in anglers hands that could be 50-60cm in length, 5,6lb? Big beautiful fish.

I was aware of the SSSS getting to these sizes further north and into the Arctic circle but i didn't mention it here as i didn't deem it relevant when considering fish being caught around our shoreline...! apparently SSSS around our shoreline rarely exceed 30cm

The Norway Bullhead isnt mentioned in general in discussions about Ms and Tb as it isnt that readily confusable with these 2 species.

I would disagree here. Not everyone might think so.
Heres a pic from fishbase of Micrenophrys lilljeborgii:

Milil_u0.jpg

at first glance it may not be that obvious as to which sea scorpion this is.
I would agree with you regarding the Armoured Bullhead/Pogge however

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Its a nice wee pic that one Charlie, I found it there when trying to find pics of Norway Bullhead. Its the only photo being offered as Norway Bullhead, I'd like to see some more if I could find them, so far no joy. The species isnt generally mentioned in discussions about sea scorpions and IDing issues. Maybe because unless it isnt under 6 or 7 cms, it cant be that species, not going to be a common rod and line fish. The illustrations available show a fish that hasnt got significant spines and therefore shouldnt be readily confused.

Surprisingly Marlin dont even have a page on Norway Bullhead. As far as I could see.