Flatfish tagging

Got these from the Marine Institute


As part of the Marine Institute's ongoing work on the biology of commercial fish in the waters around Ireland, the Marine Institute has tagged nearly 4000 flatfish. The purpose of the tagging programme is to examine the movements and growth of flatfish with the key species of interest being plaice due to its commercial importance in our fishery. Over 3000 plaice were initially tagged in the Celtic Sea in 2001 using a red/yellow Peterson disk external tag with a unique number. In 2004, 580 plaice were tagged in the Irish Sea. Using Floy tags a further 399 flatfish and rays were tagged from 2002-2006 with various tagging programmes in the Dingle Peninsula and Galway area. Fishermen and anglers have been asked to return any recaptured tags, giving details of the date and position of capture and the length of the fish. To date we have received 26 tag returns from the fishing industry, this week we received a returned tag from an angler who caught a ray at Stradbally, Co. Kerry.
I was hoping that you might be able inform your members of the above programmes and I have included a poster detailing the reward scheme that we have.
If you have any advice on how better to inform the angling community I would be very grateful to hear from you. My contact details are below.
Yours sincerely
Selene Hoey
Fisheries Science Services
Marine Institute
Rinville
Oramnore,Galway
Ireland
Direct line +353 91 387 402
Telephone +353 91 387 200
email selene.hoey@marine.ie
Please return your tag details & tag to the Flatfish
Tagging Programme, Fisheries Science Services, Marine
institute, Rinville., Oranmore, Co. Galwav, Ireland.

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once this information is gathered by the relevant body after collection of tags etc, who will the findings benefit more....commercials or anglers... :?

once this information is gathered by the relevant body after collection of tags etc, who will the findings benefit more....commercials or anglers... :?

Tagging will tell us about the mobility of populations. I have no reason to doubt the bona fides of the Marine Institute. If you are uncomfortable with the programme, ignore the tags.

i am all on for tagging programmes for anglers benefit, like the highly successful CFB ones, but i wouldnt be so keen on them if they are to help the commercials more in turn....i may have missed it all in reading the letter, but i cant see who it is that they intend to help the most as a result of this programme, they do ask anglers for their help, but nothing much in as regards to what they hope to give us back out of it (ie nursery areas, protected waters /seasons for ban on commercial fishing etc in certain areas.) just 20 euro, personally i would send a tag back until i knew for sure what channels the information was going to be fed back down.... the money wouldnt interest me.

finally.. i can get paid to go fishing :lol: :lol:

:roll: :roll: Says it all really, be nice to have some sensible debate for once!

Phil I have to agree with you 100% on this. A bit of clarification would be nice.

Marty

I think the letter explains it quite clearly

The purpose of the tagging programme is to examine the movements and growth of flat fish with the key species of interest being plaice due to its commercial importance in our fishery

So in my view if you want to help the commercials catch more fish, send the tags in, if not then don't

Andy Elliott

I think the letter explains it quite clearly

The purpose of the tagging programme is to examine the movements and growth of flat fish with the key species of interest being plaice due to its commercial importance in our fishery

So in my view if you want to help the commercials catch more fish, send the tags in, if not then don't

Andy Elliott

That is a rather simplistic reading of the situation, Andy. The tagging will tell us how mobile/localised is the plaice population. I have asked Selene for further information, which she will provide, but she is also wants to provide some further information from GMIT (Galway/Mayo Institute of Technology), who will produce the actual scientific report.
jd

John

Sometimes its the best way

Andy

John

Sometimes its the best way

Andy

Pardon me. Interesting article here
http://www.ireland.com/timeseye/offshore/p1.htm

and as it says

Ocean ecosystems thus operate at vastly differerent scales, from nearby bays and reefs to vast and distant plains and troughs floored with sediment. Agreeing on their management will be difficult, but the Marine Institute seems undeterred: "We are managing an ecosystem, not a fish stock!" Each new step in marine development depends greatly on the expertise and ecological integrity of scientists: to a degree unique in history, they will mediate human intrusion on the sea

Are you sure you are not confusing the approach of the Marine Institute with that of BIM (Bord Iascaigh Mhara) , who have a rather narrower outlook on marine exploitation?

Your pardoned :wink:

Ok ..so what happens to the results of this survey :?:

Is it unlikely to become nothing more than a scientific curiosity ?
Dont think so , more likely to be picked up by the likes of the BIM etc, who will work to make it a targetted fishery.
Of course I'm just an over zealous conservation minded angler. but take this as an example




[img]http://img474.imageshack.us/img474/230/johnbrownens1.jpg[/img]

This Notice amends Fisheries Management Notice No. 32 of 2006 with effect from 14 November 2006. It allows Irish sea-fishing vessels to have or retain on board or land on any occasion, during the period from 14 November to 30 November 2006, a quantity of plaice taken in ICES Area VIIfg that does not exceed 5 per cent (by live weight) of the total quantity of all species of fish included in the State’s fishing quota retained on board or landed on that occasion.
So in other words, there is no cap on how much plaice may be landed - it's an open-ended TAC - there is no way to quantify in advance what 5% of other species landed might be.
Ok ,it's only for two weeks, but pull enough of these stunts and it adds up to a lot of fish


Here we go from a zero plaice TAC in area VIIfg to 5% of whatever else you can fill your hold with. Not only have we laid into the plaice in this area, we're encouraging all sorts of by-catch to be retained so we can up the amount of plaice we can land. Sweet, if you're a commercial fisherman
If the MI find that at certain times there are feeding or spawning aggregations in certain locations at given times of the year and release that information into the public realm, BIM will not be long pointing the commercials at it.

I still think that the letter is pretty self explanatorywhen it says

The purpose of the tagging programme is to examine the movements and growth of flat fish with the key species of interest being plaice due to its commercial importance in our fishery

But we could debate this all day, you have your views and I have mine
Quid pro quo



Andy Elliott

Of course the Marine Insitute are going to have an interest if a species is commercial. If you want fisheries to be properly managed, you are going to have to have good scientific data. What information do you think we should use when we decide how to properly manage our fisheries?.

Of course the Marine Institute are going to have an interest if a species is commercial. If you want fisheries to be properly managed, you are going to have to have good scientific data. What information do you think we should use when we decide how to properly manage our fisheries?.

Sorry for the delay John seemed to have missed this one :oops:

You've hit the nail on the head when you say " properly managed "
Who does mange our fishery's ? Do you honestly believe its scientists ?
There are a few men in the Dail ruining our fish stocks , for a seat in the government and a load of civil servants telling them how to twist or ignore scientific advice to keep themselves cushy. The commercials have lobbyists in there day in day out whispering to the powers to be, regardless of the scientific advice they want more quota, grants, exemptions from the EU regs etc etc.
Why do you trust the politicians ? with their proven track record in fisheries mis-managment. to do the right thing with this scientific advice ?

I think the scientists should gather all the data there is to be had, and then they, not the politicians or the commercials or a pile of bureaucrats, should make the fisheries policy decisions. 100% of the people who filled out the SACN survey so far opted for this , the other options being , management by politicians or, management by politicians that implemented scientific advice as presented by the scientists.

Yes I'm all for Scientific research, and a yes to scientist's recommendations being carried out , not what some politician thinks will get them the most votes

If I have acheived nothing else with this debate, I hope a few anglers have stopped and thought the issue through, instead of jumping in blindly. Remember nowhere in that document was there a tangible benefit for anglers mentioned


Andy Elliott

Of course the Marine Institute are going to have an interest if a species is commercial. If you want fisheries to be properly managed, you are going to have to have good scientific data. What information do you think we should use when we decide how to properly manage our fisheries?.

Sorry for the delay John seemed to have missed this one :oops:

You've hit the nail on the head when you say " properly managed "
Who does mange our fishery's ? Do you honestly believe its scientists ?

Andy Elliott

Hi Andy
Selene is waiting for some further info from the project leader in GMIt.
One small point - I am quite well aware of the role that scientific agencies have in the fromation of public policy in Ireland. I'm not sure where I said or inferred that scientists actually manage our fisheries.
jd

give it socks lads, are you both on the same side or what? me personally i dont see any harm in tagging flat fish, if the information is used correctly it should be able to show were the fish breed, were they spawn and also were certain nurseries are, these ares could then be conservation areas or bans could be put in place for commercial fishing at certain times of the year.. i really dont think tis exercise is being carried out to located the fish and pull them from the water.

regards,

SAMO.

Hi John,

again apologies for the delay in getting this to you,I hope this information will be of use to your members.
Happy Christmas and I hope you have a great New Year.
Happy Fishing too !!
Regards
Selene



Fisheries Science Services(FSS) is one of seven service teams within the Marine Institute. Its mission is to 'research, assess and advise' on marine fisheries in order to ensure the sustainable exploitation of this vital resource. Data on the status of these stocks are collected annually and used for international stock assessments.This information is collected through various sampling programmes and the data are used to provide advice on the sustainable management of fish stocks. Data collected by fisheries scientists are assessed each year using special computer packages. These produce estimates of stock size (biomass). If we know about the biomass and biology of the fish stock, we can estimate on how many fish can be safely removed from the stock in order to ensure a sustainable resource. These assessments form the basis of scientific advice to the EU, who manages the stocks through annual Total Allowable Catches and various technical regulations. The waters around Ireland are divided into ICES Areas. ICES areas have been based on the requirements for the collection of fisheries statistical data and management, and have some links to regions defined by biogeography / oceanography and ecology. ICES areas are further divided into Subareas and Divisions, see attached fig. The international stock assessments are area based therefore it is important to gather information on the movements of stocks within those areas. The initial purpose of this project was to gather information on the movements of plaice in the Celtic Sea,also known as ICES Areas 7gj, along with length information which could be used to support our ageing programme.



In 2002 BIM and Taighde Mara Teo invited us to assist them in a small inshore beach seining survey in the Dingle Peninsula area, the numbers tagged were very low but we continued assisting them until this year. This part of the work was led by BIM and Taighde Mara Teo with the Galway-Mayo Institute of Technology who wished to investigate possible nursery areas of flatfish. Dr Dave McGrath from Galway-Mayo Institute of Technology wrote :

The fish tagging which is being carried out as part of the beach seining programme is aimed at increasing our understanding the biology of flatfish species on their nursery grounds. Flatfish spawn at sea and the larvae of a number of species, including plaice, turbot and flounder, are carried downstream by ocean currents to shallow sandy beach areas where they metamorphose, settle and then spend the early months and years of their lives. They move offshore as they grow and finally join the adult spawning population. In the surveys, the juveniles less than one year old fish are of most interest to the project but the numbers and sizes of older fish are also part of the results. These older fish are returned to the sea following sampling and measurement, and this allows the possibility of tagging them. The tagged

numbers are usually quite small. Recapturing these tagged fish helps to add further information on the future fate of these animals. If significant numbers are caught and returned, the data allow the estimation of individual growth rate, which allows the validation of growth rate by other means, and also provides useful information on linkages between nursery grounds and the location of feeding and spawning populations. The success of tagging depends on the numbers returned. The information, in filling in gaps in our knowledge of flatfish biology, allows for better management and monitoring of fish stocks for all stakeholders, including conservationists, anglers and commercial users of this resource. The information will be freely available and is not targeted to one use or to one used of this natural

resource.



For further information on the current status of our fish stocks visit http://www.marine.ie/home/services/oper ... fishstock/