Sustainable fishing

I’m just back from a fishing holiday in the Florida Keys. What struck me on the first day out in the boat was the fact that there were no trawlers. Our skipper explained that no trawling or netting was allowed as angling was seen as more important and sustainable than commercial fishing. We did see some commercial boats using electric reels fishing for amberjack.

This of course means that the local waters are teaming with lots of species of fish.

Angling is a major tourist industry and no doubt bring a huge amount of money into the economy.

The benefits are there for all to see. It can difficult to get a good house to rent in the area where we stayed. The bars & restaurants were all busy. Good skippers are kept busy all of the time. There are several fishing shops and lots of boat yards.

It is obvious that climate does play a part in attracting visitors to this area. However, it is the fact that the state has implemented a policy of sustainable fishing that brings the anglers in.

Maybe there is a lesson here for the Irish government and even possibly the EU.

Our fisheries are no longer sustainable using the current methods of trawling and netting. Just look at the East coast where the main fish are now pin whiting. Even the dogfish are being fished out by whelk fishermen.

The razor fishermen are pulling the bottom out of the sea up in Louth.

We can blame the Spanish, French and other European trawlers but the fact of the matter is that a blind eye is being turned to what is termed “destructive fishing” in the States.

A whole new way of thinking has to be brought into play here if we are to save our fish for future generations.

If we somehow get our fisheries back on track Ireland could become a major player in the angling world. The spin-off to bars, restaurants, hotels , B&B’s etc could be huge.

Commercial fishermen no doubt have the skills to captain a charter boat and of course know where the fish are most likely to be. Maybe it would be possible to decommission some of the trawlers and at the same time grant aid these men to buy angling boats. They long term benefits are obvious.

If our inshore fish gets a chance to recover would could have more shore guides around the country.

This might mean that all fishermen would have to have license. I know that people object to this idea but I think that the main reason for this objection is the feeling that the money would just go into the state coffers. Any license money would have to go towards the angling world and protection would be a big part of this. This is how it works in the States..

These are just my thoughts having seen how a fishery can benefit everybody.

That sounds great, however, I would think it is more a case of 'not in my back yard'. Do people not eat fish in Florida? The state has a population of 19 million +. If fish is on the menu it is caught by commercial fishermen probably using destructive methods just not off the Florida coast. Great for them but achieving absolutely zilch in terms of fish stock conservation. Sounds more like - we can make more cash out of angling than out of fishing so we'll just import our food from somewhere else.

Just some thoughts.

That sounds great, however, I would think it is more a case of 'not in my back yard'. Do people not eat fish in Florida? The state has a population of 19 million +. If fish is on the menu it is caught by commercial fishermen probably using destructive methods just not off the Florida coast. Great for them but achieving absolutely zilch in terms of fish stock conservation. Sounds more like - we can make more cash out of angling than out of fishing so we'll just import our food from somewhere else.

Just some thoughts.

Petemc, Stan has some very good point there but I don't understand you comment highlighted and as Stan said he was in Florida and that is what he saw and a commercial boat using rod and reel how sustainable fishing is that, and the point as you say they are importing food who are you talking about?. Florida or the Irish? and the state Govern's have got it spot on when they can see that there is more money to be had from angling

It would be great to see something like that happening but alas the fishing has just got worse per year in year out and unless our government in Germany said yes to it nothing is going to happen.

Thanks Stan for bring it to our attention.

well said stan, thanks for sharing mate. if only our government could wake up to the possibilities just off our shores instead of the short term gains of the commercial fishing sectors destructive methods and pratices

Lots going on there Stan - you should see the perspective from this side!

PeteMc

That sounds great, however, I would think it is more a case of 'not in my back yard'. Do people not eat fish in Florida? The state has a population of 19 million +. If fish is on the menu it is caught by commercial fishermen probably using destructive methods just not off the Florida coast. Great for them but achieving absolutely zilch in terms of fish stock conservation. Sounds more like - we can make more cash out of angling than out of fishing so we'll just import our food from somewhere else.

Just some thoughts.

Pete, People do eat fish there. The point is that they are now promoting sustainable fishing. The trawling being done here is regarded as "destructive fishing". There are alternatives to that type of commercial fishing. My point is that if we keep going on as we are at present there will be nothing left.

[color=#BF0000]Sparkey+1

It would be great to see something like that happening but alas the fishing has just got worse per year in year out and unless our government in Germany said yes to it nothing is going to happen.[/color]

Thanks Stan for bring it to our attention.

Our current minister has brought about new measures in the EU to stop the dumping of fish. This is laudable. I am unsure if we have a better position now that all fish can be kept. It is basically a no win situation no matter what stance is taken. Germany, really has very little sea and so probably do not really care. It is our government that should be leading the way.

Al & Jordan
well said stan, thanks for sharing mate. if only our government could wake up to the possibilities just off our shores instead of the short term gains of the commercial fishing sectors destructive methods and practices.

YEP

Jim H
Lots going on there Stan - you should see the perspective from this side!

Yes Jim. As you know I am an avid bass fisherman like yourself. With more protection from poachers we would have a really superb bass fishery here. The amount of money that this would bring in would be phenomenal.


Thanks for all of the responses lads.

Stan - If we ignored the poaching for the moment - there are many many fundamental problems with development and marketing issues related to angling in this country. That's why I wear a kevlar helmet at lot of the time!

Its a very interesting and challenging post no doubt!

I agree with you Jim. Angling does not seem to feature as much as it should in the toursim industry.

It is a fact that more people in the UK go angling than watch football. That market alone would bring in a fortune to this country.

Sadly we lack politicians / leaders in this country that can think outside the box!!!

When you think that the Irish Shore Angling team got 1st in the World championships a couple of years ago and this was virtually ignored by the media this is a crazy situation. John O Brien and his fellow anglers should have been given a huge homecoming. In any other sport they would have been chased by the media for interviews for weeks.

As a keen angler, diver and marine biologist I commend any person, body or state that attempts to promote sustainable fishing practices. I can see that angling may have a role in fish conservation but as long as our ever growing population wants to eat fish we will never have truly sustainable fisheries.

I think we should base our ideas on facts. If you go here http://myfwc.com/media/2515034/sumstate_12.pdf you can see the landings of the commercial fisheries in Florida for 2012. To me the figures are quite staggering but just a couple that really stand out:

Shark 998,015lbs

Shark fin 28,662 lbs

Blue Fin tuna 37,197 lbs. The bluefin tuna Thunnus thynnus is listed as critically endangered by the International Union for the Conservation of Nature. A taxon is Critically Endangered when it is facing an extremely high risk of extinction in the wild in the immediate future.

Given that 2000 lbs is a ton I find the above quite frightening. The site also has all listings for commercial fishery licences issued in Florida. Purse seining and its associated by catch is a major part of fishing in Florida.

[color=#BF0000]As a keen angler, diver and marine biologist I commend any person, body or state that attempts to promote sustainable fishing practices. I can see that angling may have a role in fish conservation but as long as our ever growing population wants to eat fish we will never have truly sustainable fisheries.

I think we should base our ideas on facts. If you go here http://myfwc.com/media/2515034/sumstate_12.pdf you can see the landings of the commercial fisheries in Florida for 2012. To me the figures are quite staggering but just a couple that really stand out:

Shark 998,015lbs

Shark fin 28,662 lbs

Blue Fin tuna 37,197 lbs. The bluefin tuna Thunnus thynnus is listed as critically endangered by the International Union for the Conservation of Nature. A taxon is Critically Endangered when it is facing an extremely high risk of extinction in the wild in the immediate future.

Given that 2000 lbs is a ton I find the above quite frightening. The site also has all listings for commercial fishery licences issued in Florida. Purse seining and its associated by catch is a major part of fishing in Florida.


Pete, I was fishing in the Keys in Florida. No doubt your stats are true. However,I can assure you that there were no trawlers in the area that we were fishing. We fished in both the Atlantic and Gulf of Mexico. I would describe the catches as superb.

I have fished in many places and so have some experience of the effects of "destructive commercial fishing". Gambia is an example of how a brilliant fishery can be wiped out virtually overnight. Hundreds if not thousands of Irish and English anglers travelled there annually and had fantastic fishing. Jacks, barracuda, stingrays, captain fish, guitar fish plus many more were caught in abundance. The government then basically sold the fishing rights to foreign countries. On top of that the locals got better nets. The last time I was there I watched a net being hauled into the beach full of Jacks and barra. I spoke to the local in charge and he told me that they had landed 3500 jacks that week......that was on one beach. The result is that it is not worth going to Gambia now as all that is left is catfish.

In Kenya Malindi was home to some of the best billfish and tuna fishing in the world. Hemmingway would turn in his grave to see the Japanese trawlers taking the fish now.

Interestingly, Guinea Bissau still has excellent fishing around the outer islands. This is because the fishing there is protected. There are some bongo boats and pyrogues there. However, they seem to use handlines ( sustainable fishing) and really have no impact on the fish population.

We used to have great fishing here and I believe that this is possible.

I agree that the demand for fish may have increased but still think that we have to manage our fishery. The alternative is unthinkable and so I think that it is worth making the effort rather than saying that there is nothing that can be done.

We used to have great fishing here and I believe that this is possible.

I agree that the demand for fish may have increased but still think that we have to manage our fishery. The alternative is unthinkable and so I think that it is worth making the effort rather than saying that there is nothing that can be done.

Very passionate and laudable post Stan with a good number of valid points. However I have posted a set of photos which appeared in Callum Roberts 2012 published "Ocean Life" relating to recreational fishing in and around the Florida Keys. Note the Goliath Groupers in the top Black and White image. What you experienced was "shifting baselines".

Our current minister has brought about new measures in the EU to stop the dumping of fish

I would debate that quote anywhere with great confidence of winning. Discards, although always an elephant in the cupboard only became an issue after "The End of the Line" was published which closely followed The Blue Planet episode on over fishing, which finally was brought to the forefront by HFW and his fish fight campaign. Please, only hand out plaudits when they are deserved. Discards are a long way from being sorted, the industry will make sure of that.

Sadly we lack politicians / leaders in this country that can think outside the box!!!

AGREED, however to that I would also would add, "that real visionarys are excluded from careers in the public service lest they rock the boat." Only when that chestnut is dealt with will you see real progress.

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a great post stan and i used florida and the man made reefs in the states as an example of fishing nirvana a few years back.there is bigger probs in the states as a lot of the fish caught cant be eaten because of mercury amounts .so that could easily explain the lack of trawlers most of the fish is polluted/. they also have lines been cast 4 and 5 miles long for tuna and swords on a large scale ,killing thousands of sharks and undersized fish in the process so not so perfect. a ban on all trawling and dredgingof even 6 miles around our coast would make such a difference throw in a few man made reefs and give our fish back there nurseries. because thats what we have destroyed .put back and re sow the musselbeds this gives shelter and cleans the water as well as food not an impossible task

It’s easier to control waters that are governed by your own country such as the USA and Norway, Irelands waters are controlled by the EU as is the UK, why don’t people understand this; it’s so frustrating its infuriating at times, stop talking about Ireland and start talking sense, we are part of the EU/Eurozone and soon enough a United States of Europe. The Irish government and UK government have to go cap in hand to ask for fish quotas to the European parliament, almost every law that exists around marine conservation or lack off is decided by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels and Strasbourg.

The people of Ireland need to realise they have sold their sovereignty to the EU and therefore its rights to rule its waters, remember the Lisbon Treaty that you voted "NO” for on 2 occasions before finally getting the “right” answer? That piece of European legislation was the EU reward for Irelands 30 pieces of silver or 85 billion euro and the reason why we will never be able to solely decide the fate of our own waters. If the voting members of the EU parliament decide that it’s in the best interest of the majority of member states then the commercial factors will always win over the recreational because at the end of the day you can’t eat euro. I am a euro skeptic for all the right reasons and especially when it comes to fishing and how we just handed over one of our natural resources without a whimper.

Please understand that I am a fisherman too and I would love a fishery like the USA, Australia and Norway but it’s just not feasible at this time and maybe not in the lifetime of anyone on this site or possibly alive on the entire island of Ireland today, it will take a complete withdrawal from the EU and around 60-80 years of well managed fisheries. The CFP does not work; it never has worked for the benefit of our islands from its conception. Can we change things? I really don’t think so; maybe our next generation will find the courage to stand up for their sovereignty and protect our natural heritage and our marine environment and in the meantime we can all go on here and pat each other on the back for wonderful ideas and the great things other countries are doing for their marine environment and dream of halcyon days gone by.

I have to watch my rhetoric on this but I have only stated facts and the facts are simple to understand and should not be disguised or edited, when you talk about Ireland or UK waters you should really be talking about the EU territorial fishery, when you talk about making possible changes to Ireland/UK commercial fishing then please refer to this as EU commercial fishery vessels and these laws can only be changed through the EU parliament which there are currently 754 MEP’S not to mention 14 vice presidents(all non-elected), Ireland and the UK are a small voice with a resource craved by a bigger populous a child can fathom the outcome of that debate. So the short to medium term things will continue in the same vein, our fishery will be exploited for the good of other EU countries.

Tight Lines
Aaron

I've always believed in asking questions first before shooting Julio "R", it's too easy to sit in front of a screen and patronise. I and other users on this site do not know who you are, but there's a bucket load of people know who I am because I do not hide behind a pseudnym.

How dare you come across the ether deciding that we know s##t about our current position, and how dare you decide that this country, even as a member of the EU isn't capable of changing the playing pitch.

Should you believe in the "There is No Alternative" ethos of Margeret Thatcher and Angela Merkel then let me tell you, there is a vast swathe of people out there in this country and abroad who don't, democracy will prove, even within the EU, that the right path can be taken.

10,000 people last Saturday in Dame St, Dublin, stood up to all the EU finance Ministers ensconced in Dublin Castle and Public Service Unions here told the troika where to go yesterday. You get off your soapbox......

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I fully support the democratic right to protest and I encourage it but it’s getting us nowhere, it’s a fact that the Irish government where told that they had to sort the budget out before they held any sort of parliamentary elections by Merkel, Barroso,Van Rumpoy and company, how is that democracy? If you can give any sort of example where the Irish people alone have changed EU legislation since the Lisbon Treaty I would be more than surprised, in fact I will save you the bother, it’s never happened and will never happen.

I was referring also to why if democracy is working for the Irish people then why where 2 “NO” votes for the Lisbon Treaty rejected by the EU and then the people forced into a “YES”? I indicated that when people (not everyone) post on the forum and refer to making changes in the way Irish waters or UK waters are fished or being in our control or something we can do that this is not the case and it’s on lots of posts from a number of different people, we as citizens of Ireland and the UK cannot change the CFP or any other Marine conservation law under the terms of the Lisbon Treaty whilst we remain part of the EU it’s a simple as that, that’s what I made my points on and they are based on facts. I do however think it’s disappointing that politics plays such a major role in our sport and I understand all too well how politics can raise issues that divide having grown up here in Northern Ireland.

I joined SAI for discussions such as these, they are great and get out in the open topics that otherwise have gone unnoticed, 58% turned out to vote on the Lisbon Treaty which gave away sovereignty of this island and our right to govern ourselves, if by discussing CFP and the EU control on our fishing on this forum raises the subject and encourages people to take more of an interest in the state we are in then that is a good thing and should be encouraged.

Tight Lines
Aaron

I'm always interested when someone tells us we need to know and understand the "facts". Its often the case that many facts are open to interpretation but sometimes they are simply the facts. Here are a few for you; It is a deliberate policy in many US States to have fish stock levels high enough that very many people who want to eat fish can simply go out and catch them. This has many advantages. It gets people out into the environment. If properly managed it is sustainable. It puts food on the table! It gives the highest possible "added value" to the fish consumed.
Ireland can manage its inshore (6 miles) fish stocks any way it pleases. The only stipulation by the EU is that we cannot go below MLS's. We already do things differently with bass.
The 754 MEP's mentiones above do not decide our fisheries policy. Nor do the "bureaucrats". Policy(and quotas) are proposed by the EU Fisheries commision based on advice from ICES. This is then ignored and our fisheries ministers make the final decesions based on the strenght of the commercial lobby and where they think the most votes lie.
The current CFP reform proves this point. The original Commision's proposals have been vastly watered down. The "discard ban" is now only for controlled (quota) species because that is what the commercial sector wanted all along.
Julio R, I do agree with you on one point. Until people understand the issues there is little hope of change.

Hi Aaron,

In principal I would agree with a lot of what you said, my ire was directed at the assumption emanating from your post that we are not aware of our position within the EU with regard to fisheries and general governance.

John is right with regard to our six mile limit, however fish migrate well beyond six miles, so it's open house. The fishing that I grew up with off Greystones, Co. Wicklow was dependant on migrations of stock onto the food bearing mussel beds. A double whammy of inshore mussel dredging and fishing within the Irish sea and beyond put paid to the fishery.

So in theory you can restore the inshore environment over time but that does not mean that the fish will return.

For the record I voted "No" to Lisbon four times.

Yes John, there are models that can work, Norway is the best example but it’s mainly down to non EU membership, other countries like Iceland and the Danish dependencies Faroes and Greenland also benefit more now that they never signed up, they all have trade agreements as an Economic Trading Partner and get along just fine and have good productive fisheries .The CFP doesn’t work for us it never has, the Irish and British had a resource that was the envy of the continent and craved by the EU, the EU decide who we can trade our fish with not us. Yes member states have some contribution on how the quota is distributed after the Directorate-General for Maritime Affairs and Fisheries (also known in short as DG MARE) the Commission department responsible for the implementation of the Common Fisheries policy and of the Integrated Maritime Policy decide on each countries allowance. How have we let it get to this stage?

We in the UK signed up to the EEC as a means to free trade not to have our fisheries plundered to the extent we face today. I know people have this thing for Bass and rightly so but our main species like Cod, Haddock and Plaice cannot be protected by a 6 mile jurisdiction and it’s even more frustrating that Ireland has a territory that is over 500 million square kilometres that stretches 100’s of miles into the Atlantic but yet we take pride in saying we can decide what we can do within 6 miles. As long as we remain within the current setup then our resource will continue to be depleted and our economies will continue to suffer and our chance to turn around our fishery disappears.
Does anyone out there have another alternative to a complete withdrawal from the EU? Is this the only logical step to allow the people of Ireland and UK its birthright to govern their own waters? Would control of our seas as sovereign nations and using our natural marine resources for our own benefit be detrimental to our economies or would the demand from European consumers for our seafood cease if we where to ban or restrict foreign fleets?

The answers to your last questions are in each case no, of course we would benefit from harnessing and managing our own resources and of course we would be able to sell every kilogram of seafood that we produce, there are after all seven billion people on the planet.

The real issue is does Ireland have the balls to grow up, stand on its own two feet, and re-assert ownership of what is rightfully ours for the first time since we gained independence. Withdrawal can be a viable option, natural resources such as restored properly managed fisheries, untapped oil and gas, and wind and wave energy have the ability to underpin this. In terms of our geographic position we are not going anywhere so we are still a base for multi nationals, english speaking, well educated, etc, etc.

We can learn a lot from the actions of countries such as Iceland (Fisheries) and Norway (Fossil Fuels).

However the priority at present is how do we undo the financial mess that successive administrations have put us in, however this is a fishing forum so I'll stop.

Look you cannot supply fish to the population of the world or any nation within it by angling ....... or rod and line or whatever "sustainable" method you want.....netting is the only way, end of story. Yes you can give examples of line fisheries ...tuna fisheries in the maldives, mackerel fisheries in the med blah blah blah they catch small numbers of fish in a supposedly sustainable manner. They will not feed the population of the world that want to eat fish. If you want to preserve fish stocks you need to restrict who is allowed to eat or use them ....fact. Everything else is fantasy.