Celebrating the catching of undersize species.

Happy new year to all at S.A.I.

We all like getting out in the air and fishing various venues with a view to catching a specific species, or just a range of fish. Today the range of species reaching specimen size or just a good weight has diminished greatly. Specimen fish are still talked about in terms of pounds or kilo's, while the majority of catches are refered to by length.

Catching undersize fish might be the order of the day in 2010, but it does not have to be. With all respect to the contributors who post on this site images of undersize fish, they do not raise the profile of sea angling or give one hope that decent fish across a range of species will be landed in the future.

Within the last twenty five years it was possible to catch 10 Codling off Ballygannon whose combined weight would top 40.lbs. Now no one in this day and age is advocating returning home with that amount of fish, however that was the standard. I believe that it is incumbent on the members and moderators of this site to drive forward this debate so that we can again experience catches like that.

In my opinion a kings new clothes syndrome exists and we are glorifying second best. As most members of S.A.I are also members of affiliated clubs within the IFSA make 2010 the year where we will all come together and demand a better deal for the fish that frequent our inshore waters, so improving our sport with a return to the range and size of species that we enjoyed in the very recent past. Posting images of fish that are worthy of being viewed would be a useful starting point.

Ashley,
I think we would all like a return to catches of the calibre you describe but I dont think anglers of the rod and line variety are the biggest problem. Just a quick search shows plenty of info relating to whelk fishing in this area which shows:
No enforcement of regs.
50% of whelk landed where undersize
Whelk population is decreasing but whelk landing in Wicklow and Arklow is on the increase.
http://www.marine.ie/NR/rdonlyres/517E7F5A-D7A9-46B6-8041-42B8F7F98C33/0/WhelkFisheryonallcoasts07.pdf

Is the rest of the commercial fishing industry run on the same basis?

These issues need to be sorted to get any sort of revival back to the fishing of yesteryear.

Adam

Hi Ashley,

I agree with what adam says. What people do in sea fishing with rod and line is completely irrelevant to
the stocks. What is exteminating the species is commercial fishing. What we need is people such
as fishing guide, charter skippers, tackle shop owners, b&bs etc to lobby as effectively as the
people who earn a living from commercial fishing

I often walk the dog around the harbour area in wicklow and some of the sights on the quay side have appaled me. ive seen nets containing undersized fish being bashed off the concrete to bang out the small fish. Why cant they be removed at sea? ive also seen box after box of doggies on the quay side for bait in pots no wonder there not as abundant as they once were.This imo is much more detremental to fish stocks than rod and line anglers who catch a tiny percentage compared to even these quite small boats

Hi Ashley,
Think you need to define" undersized ".
If your meaning anything under a specimen , thats a little optimistic.
You can catch a 5 oz poor cod, and thats a monster of its species,but of course looks like a tiddler in any photographs.
As previous posters have said, Look at the commercial fish kill and dumping of thousands of tonnes of juvenile fish every day ! I appreciate you are trying to mobalize action to try and change ministers minds, but when you see the latest FARCE called the quota system, you can see that even if everyone in the country said something the eurocrats will still ignore the b...y truth ! How many more surveys do they need to do to see the b...y obvious !! Keep pulling out fish at an unsustainable rate, and funny old thing they dissappear.
I for one as a child and as a teenager, ( many years ago) got hooked on fishing by catching smaller fish, sticklebacks, whiting etc of the east coast etc, i think most people will agree, you never forget your first fish, no matter how big it was.
I know what you are trying to say, and yes a picture of a 6 inch 15cm cod looks bad on the website, but if its your first ever fish its priceless !!!
regards
screeming

i think what ashley means is that we refrain from posting pictures of undersize fish to improve the image of rsa in general,trouble is that to back up a claim of catching a particular species,pictures will be posted whither they are undersize fish or not, i would agree with ashley on this point and this year will try not to post pictures of undersize fish if possible.

Nobody wants to see undersize fish, but this is typical treating the symptom instead of the root cause. Undersize fish are a symptom of non enforced and exploited regs.
OK Lets market this country for angling where you come and catch big fish but when you arrive there not here, guess what they wont be back.
CFB report 2008 shows the number of licenses increased number and number of inspections decreased from 2006 to 2008. So we have more people fishing and even less enforcement of the regulations.

The way I see it is why have a report section then? Lets be honest the count size for match fishing is going down so clearly the fisher being caught are of a smaller size. Ok pic's of small fish don't get the blood boiling but they offer the most accurate description of what is being caught and where. The only thing is, if they could be compared with photos from years ago it would show the difference of what is going on along our coast line. No point trying to sweep it under the carpet by hiding the fact that most session are of little quality compared to the good old days.

Thank you for the replies to date. Some good points have been raised, however.

To clarify, by undersize I mean relative to the species, so a pound plus Flounder for instance would be a good fish. On the other hand twenty odd centimeter Codling, Coalfish, or Bass, and see through Dabs are not. Unfortunately, images of these posted by seasoned anglers alongside reports of the session highlighting the small size, regularly appear on this site. In my opinion this does nothing to promote the sport of sea angling in this country. It may highlight a malaise but that is not what the reports section on this site should be about.

Accepted overfishing has reduced the range and size of species, but instead of running a protracted campaign against overfishing the IFSA, EFSA, and related organisations have adjusted their competition rules to facilitate the catching of small fish. This will have long term consequences especially when debating the bye catch issue, as the commercial sector will point at the present IFSA and EFSA rule books, and argue that anglers are at it too. The issue of what a prawn dragger can haul up as against a three hook flapper will not come into it. A case of the pot calling the kettle black.

I believe that S.A.I members and moderators should consider the above points and ongoing post reports and images of the decent fish landed. This site gets a lot of foreign interest and definitely plays its part in attracting tourist anglers, so make it worth their while when they pay a visit.

i understand where your coming from ashley - but my personal opinion is that to prevent reports with photos of under 30cm round fish for instance would be a nightmare to police

it would also turn off a lot of anglers from putting up posts - from my own personal experience i usually catch nothing of note and my reports very rarely contain any pictures and admitadely are very boring but i feel i have nothing to report otherwise

i would love to have decent fish pictured, i just cant get my hands on them

at least with plenty of reports there will be some with quality pictures of fish in them and those thinking of fishing in ireland can aspire to that

I am sorry Ashley but i think the reports section is just that a report of a session and i would prefer to see what is actually caught rather than some promotional photos. So should keep catching under size fish but just don't report/photo it.
If the overfishing and other issues were sorted and CFB enforced the regulations, Sea angling in this country would be easy to promote.

I've put up photos of smallish fish from time to time like a recent photo of a dab which was my first flattie and a herring about the size of my finger another time but that's to outline the range of fish that we were catching which can add to a good session that would hopefully contain a few good fish too. But i don't see how this can be avoided when you cast out a bunch of lug tipped with a chunk of squid on a 4/0 hook and come back with a 3 inch whiting hanging off the end of it. It's part of angling and i don't see how taking a quick pic for the journal and chucking the greedy little fellas back is goin to leave stocks dwindling. All part of the fun and i've seen people reporting blank sessions up on the forum. Another thing that goes hand in hand with the sport (if your a novice like myself anyway). It's all only a bit of craic at the end of the day.

Tight lines.

I think its more honest to post the photos rather than say
result; bass, cod, flounder, coalie etc,
this can give an impression that youre actually catching bigger fish than whats out there. Whats the difference in saying codling 24cms or posting a photo of it?Most of the information out there is harking back to the 60's or 70's,,, John Hinde postcards, Darby O Gill and specimen fish littering the beaches.I've often cursed the signpost at Ennereilly with its promise of bass codling dogfish flounder whiting when i've walked away with a pin whiting

enn (Medium).jpg

This site is a dose of reality and the best source of real information(most of the time )Not all of us experienced the glory days of the 70's etc, this is it for us

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first flaw to this argument would be in relation to the reports section. a ban on undersize fish appearing in reports would dramaticaly reduce the amount of traffic in that section. lets face it 90% of the reports feature undersize fish and as sad as it seems the pictures make the reports interesting and help in attracting more people to get involved. a picture tells a thousand words.
it seems to be a general conscensus here that getting together, debating, outlining important scientific research in light the perils of overfishing to the masses and signing meaningless petitions will prevent the plight of the atlantic cod or etc... but at the end of the day money speaks. however terrible the actions of the fishermen are they generate revenue and as a result tax incom for the government, more so than tourism related sea angling in this country. so the argument of ifsa and efsa not rallying together to fight overfishing is defunct. to stay alive and competitive they have done what they have to and i favour the changes in rules.

i will continue to celebrate the catching of undersize species because sadly its all we have left. i was never part of the mega codling bags of south beach greystones or the dustbin lid plaice of killiney but i am realistic enough to know a time of sustainable fishing and roses floating down dalkey sound will never come. perhaps im just a horrible pessimist

I agree with a lot of the comments about photographing fish, of any size, and putting them on the site. I don't see any problem with it as long as the juvinile fish are handled correctly and put back to grow.
On the point of reduced catches i don't see why we have to accept this. We all spend a lot of money in the persuit of our sport, whether it's the tax on the fuel we use to get to our fishing spots , which in many cases is considerable, to the revenue raised from buying tackle etc. I feel that it's time governments listened to our argument. But the IFSA etc must get the tourist industry, tackle manufacturers etc involved in this. They are all stakeholders and their business depends on us spending our hard earned cash.
We all know that the problem is over fishing in the commercial sector. Too many boats are fishing as close to shore to get their catch thereby saving money on fuel and increasing their profits from their reduced overheads.
We need a designated zone all around this island to stop commercial fishing within say 5 to 10 miles from shore. Further would be fantastic but i think would be unrealistic. I don't think the commercials would have anything to complain about in this and we might in time see an increase in the quality of our catch. The commercials might also benefit from this as many fish are migratory and they would also have the opportunity to go after the larger fish when they move.
Sooner or later the people that make the decisions have to realise that boats can't keep taking 400 tonne of mackeral every trip and still expect to have a viable fishing industry.

Let's hope it's sooner !

Hey guys!

Sorry for interupting, but it seems to be right topic for that.

On the 2nd of Jan I managed a sea trout (attached) on the lure. Along with sharing this info on SAI I also put a picture on one of polish angling sites. Photo was removed by moderator due to fish being undersized. Fish is small, all right, but my post was in the report section.

What do you think?

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Hey guys!

Sorry for interupting, but it seems to be right topic for that.

On the 2nd of Jan I managed a sea trout (attached) on the lure. Along with sharing this info on SAI I also put a picture on one of polish angling sites. Photo was removed by moderator due to fish being undersized. Fish is small, all right, but my post was in the report section.

What do you think?

I recon its not a massive trout but still a nice fish...id be happy with one anyway!

I do not want to be a kill joy, and do take the point about anglers new to the sport catching the first fish of a species and wanting to record the moment. Also, yes angling is all about getting out in the air with friends, having a laugh, and hopefully catching a decent fish or two. However, I do not buy into the line that we may never see the good old days so we just have to adapt to the prevailing status quo.

On holiday in the States last summer I had two of the best days fly fishing in my life. The rivers that I fished, "The Big Hole" and "The Jefferson" flow through Montana. One hundred years ago those rivers were dead on their feet from overfishing by settlers, and threatened by poaching, more overfishing, water abstraction for ranching and new towns, damming, mining, and smelting, amongst other nasties. Today the rivers of Montana like the two above, and others like the Yellowstone, Madison, Gallatin, and Ruby, are classed as "Blue Ribbon" trout streams. They sustain a huge head of wild indiginous trout including Rainbows, Browns, Cutthroat, and Brook, and are not stocked but now managed correctly. All this happened as a result of people pressure on the vested interests and politicians. The people won, see below.

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ashley its a lot easier to manage a river system than the open ocean?

eric,

i must say i find your opinion posted above that there is nothing that can be done
deeply depressing, many other societies manage their wildlife rationally.
The folks in commercial fishing are the type that never see too many steps
ahead, they are after all destroying their own jobs.

with respect to the other point I think many people read sites like this
because nobody is on it to make money so you are *much* more
likely to hear the truth , it is nobody's marketing arm