Celebrating the catching of undersize species.

Thank You Salty dog, I thought that would grab a response and draw comment out of the wood work. Yes I am aware of the members that you mention and the images of fish that they post up on occasions.

That is my point, we should aspire to quality. Whwn I was a young lad, and that is not today or yesterday, I wanted to catch a ten pound Bass or a twenty pound Cod. Codling were fifteen inches+ and flats were twelve inches+. If we caught small fish, other than looking after them carefully and returning them, they did not count.

The big fish are there, maybe in less numbers, but if we do not aim high then we never will see in the future a return to bigger and better catches.

i dont think any pleasure angler aspires to catch only small fish as a match angler my aspirations are different and as much as i hate to admit it involve catching small fish and plenty of them. but the average angler always lives in the hope of something bigger.

Thank You Salty dog, I thought that would grab a response and draw comment out of the wood work. Yes I am aware of the members that you mention and the images of fish that they post up on occasions.

That is my point, we should aspire to quality. Whwn I was a young lad, and that is not today or yesterday, I wanted to catch a ten pound Bass or a twenty pound Cod. Codling were fifteen inches+ and flats were twelve inches+. If we caught small fish, other than looking after them carefully and returning them, they did not count.

The big fish are there, maybe in less numbers, but if we do not aim high then we never will see in the future a return to bigger and better catches.

HAHAHAHAHAHA SO IF I UNDERSTAND YOU CORRECTLY YOU MADE THE REMARK IN ORDER TO GET PEOPLE'S BACKS UP??????

ASHLEY WHY DONT YOU TELL US ALL WHAT THE FISHERIES BOARD IS DOING TO IMPROVE THE ANGLING AVAILABLE IN IRELAND??? WHAT PROJECTS ARE IN THE PIPLELINE IN THE WAY OF CONSERVATION, REGENERATION ETC ETC???????????????????????????????????

Not for one second MikeQ have I been nor would I be disrespectful. I have strong opinions on this subject, that is why I posted the thread. Reading back through the responses the general opinion on the site is that posting images of small fish is OK. I disagree with that point of view, have been open, offered solutions, and given reasons based on experience why I hold that view. I feel that is being honest, that is all.

Thank You Salty dog, I thought that would grab a response and draw comment out of the wood work.

I find that comment very disingenuous to say the least.

The debate has ellicited a good response with many view points, two of which stand out. Second best appears to have been accepted on this site and that quality fishing is a thing of the past. All the images below were taken in 2009. The fishing trips were not highly planned affairs, some were off the cuff, however in each instant a little bit of thought was employed, but not much.

I've been watching the debate on here for a while and found it very interesting. I've got a few points also that stand out to me -

Active members of the site should not be made to feel inadequate because they are posting pictures of small fish. With work, family and other commitments not everyone can commit to get fishing at venues where they are likely to get big fish. In reality, nobody catches good fish evertime they go fishing, and if you are going to target big fish with big hooks everytime you go out, well, you're going to have alot of blanks.

As far as I was aware, this website provided a forum for catch reports & information in Ireland, not to serve as an advertisment to travelling & foreign anglers that Ireland is some kind of "Valhalla" for anglers. IT'S NOT. Some of the articles I read in the angling press make me laugh, particularly the british titles (TSF & Sea Angler), the tourist board puts visiting angling correspondents up for a week, these same correspondents are hardly going to slate the country's fishing now are they.

As an aside to this point, I go to Dingle every year for a week, it's by far the best fishing I've experienced in Ireland. Going around the marks, you always meet plenty of anglers, particularly from the UK. A couple of chats I had in October really back up my point. Met a guy from Wales on a well known mark and asked him how the fishing was going, in a week he had caught an 8lb bass, an 11lb (specimen) painted ray, lots of wrasse to 4lb & many fine pollack on spinning rod as well as loads of flounder, mackeral etc. We were envious to say the least. He was disapointed as going on articles he had read, he expected to catch more and bigger fish.

Promotion of angling in the Ireland is down to the fisheries & tourist boards. For a member of either of these boards to come on this website and suggest anglers should or should not post in a certain way is extremely demeaning, patronising and borderline fascism.

On the point that members here beleive quality fishing is a thing of the past, I certainly don't agree with that. You only have to look at the catch reports to know people are getting out catching good fish, examples of which Saltydog has given. To however only post when you have caught an "impressive" fish, is going to distort and create a false impression of what is really there to be caught.

Nothing personal in anything I have said there, I just don't agree with any of your arguement.

Not for one second MikeQ have I been nor would I be disrespectful. I have strong opinions on this subject, that is why I posted the thread. Reading back through the responses the general opinion on the site is that posting images of small fish is OK. I disagree with that point of view, have been open, offered solutions, and given reasons based on experience why I hold that view. I feel that is being honest, that is all.

Ashley there are far more important things to be worrying about than anglers posting pics of small fish they have caught while in the pursuit of specimen's. Every time I tie a rig i check and double check my nots, I collect, store and present my baits with great care, I preach about the necessity of catch and release so as to try and make some small difference to the available fishing left for others, I spend thousands and thousands of euro's on the best gear that money can buy because there is always the chance that the gear will be put through its paces by a monster, I spend hours driving the length and breadth of the country to marks in pursuit of specimen's and my efforts still pale in insignifigance compared to the dedication, skill, and effort by some of the lads on this site. I think you are missing the point of fishing by miles. Fishing is not about catching big fish. Its about enjoyment for your body mind and soul. Its about seeing that rod tip twitch to the first signs of a bite and ill tell you this, there is not a single angler on this site that wouldnt still go fishing and still put in the time and effort no matter how small the fish.

or how many blanks !this has been a good discussion it changed direction a bit after a while everyone gave there opinion and got there point across this is the site at its best it allowed everyone to say there piece and what did we get at the end of it. me personally im determined to annoy my local tds with the artifical reef idea maybe its a time to approach this again and see what feed back i get i think il start with micheal woods he was a marine minister he should have a few answers for me i think we should be proud of our sport even if all were left with is fry and minis i can see were ashley is coming from also match angling in the sea i dont think works lakes and rivers are restocked every2 yrs by clubs and burroghs to replace the stock killed mother nature stocks the sea lets hope we havent gone to far and we can repair the damage us greedy humans have inflicted on our oceans

It would be far easier to be sitting over a cup of tea or a pint and discussing this subject. I do not mormally enter these thread conversations but hey I started it.

My initial post was based on the inordinate amount of images of small fish that I see on the site, and have we accepted second best? It is obvious that we have not from the responses and that there are many view points on our sport. Mine is just one. I believe that we have to aspire to the catches that I witnessed and took part in back in my formative angling years in the mid seventies, and I believe that they will return. We did not always catch big fish, far from it, but we rarely caught tiddlers. Aim high.

Thanks all for the debate,

Ashley

those were the days my friend .trawlers went to sea and sold all there catch dident dump anything. under a different topic i have express these views. it frightens me also to think of the short time it has taken to get to where we are. in the mid to earley seventys i used to throw back codling which i could catch 3 at a time off collimore harbour up to 5 lb in weight
flats and flounder 2lb plus i actually won a comp in kilcoole with a 2 lb black sole .but the real truth is there not there anymore .even in the boats around howth large pollock and codling all year round , not there anymore ,plenty of dogfish and huss hounds alright .and no one can say your only targeting minis in a boat.but if you look at my first 3 boat reports last april
all 3 inch whiting nothing else and all the different baits and rigs used. it wasnt any different to what they were catching on the piers yes you still get a few codling at the muglins but nothing like what we used to get in size and quantity thats the harsh reality of our waters at the moment all thats left is the dregs

hi all
very interesting debate
imo the point ashley is makeing that if every one only posts pictures of 20cm or less
that it sets norm for all that there is to catch
if you keep heading to your local mark most outings will only produce that result of 20cm fish
there are alot of good venues produceing the odd bigger fish
but that takes time and money travell etc
i think the anglers that keep the shore reports going that post pictures of smaller fish
KEEP POSTING
sai is a great site for info on how marks are fishing
as eirc said most comps the match angler has to target 20cm fish or stay at home
in pleasure fishing if you are willing to travel and put in the effort you will pull out that big one
thats my bit
good luck to all

Hmmmm.. interesting debate...
there are so many ways this could be looked at.. viewed upon and analysed
and yes i know i said the same thing three times, but that's just to shoe how many ways there are of saying the same thing,

the main thing here is what happens to those 'undersized fish' when they are caught that seems to cause the most interesting debates.. and actually what counts as an undersized fish?? dont forget theer are plenty of mini species that only grow to 15cm, are they being included in the debate? because i'm sure if someone caught a 15cm shanny or rock goby i'd love to see a photo of one of those that size..
the main concern seems to be noted in, 'what happens to those 'undersized fish' when they are caught??', its the welfare of the fish!
should it be released as quickly and carefully as possible to ensure a higher chance of surviving, is it fair to keep a fish out that little bit longer so a photo can be taken of the fish? and should that photo of the undersized fish be shown as a trophy to give a certain bragging right for the moment in time until the next fishing session???

then there is the whole argument of 'why are you targeting only the small fish??'..

now unlike river and lake fishing where nearly all the fish have to use different tactics to encsure catching that species, sea fishing is totally different.. ok i know it is possible to target a species and catch that species, but how many times have other unexpected species been found munching on the bait?
throw out a 2/0 hook with a strip of mackerel and tell me what species wont go for that!! unfortunately i've had dab of 10cm on such baits, even to this day i still dont know how it managed to get hooked through the bottom lip.. but it happens... and yes i do have a photo of it for the simple reason how often are you going to catch such a small fish on a relatively large hook? and yes the fish was released and it seemed to swim off rather happily...

you can use the argument of why use small hooks? my answer to this is rather simple.. and those who fish competitions may be able to elate to this.. big baits normally catch big fish.. but small baits catch both small and large fish.. now by small i dont mean undersized, but fish that will actually count in a competition and give substantial point..
even myself have a variety of hook sized ranging from size 10 - 8/0.. and here is what i use them for
size - used for catching
10 - mullet
8 - mullet and mini species(rock goby, shanny, short spined sea scorpion, dragonet)
6 & 4 - mini species and wrasse (corkwing, gold shinny etc)
2 - wrasse (cuckoo and ballan)
1 & 1/0 - pollock coalfish dogfish
2/0 - ray and bull huss
3/0 -smooth hounds, large ray & large huss (8lbs+ )
4/0 & up - large shark conger eels etc etc

but having all that said, i have caught pollock of 5lbs+ while fishing for mini species i.e. size 6 hooks
and i've caught 10cm dab on a size 2/0..

so regardless of what size hook and what size fish is caught... it is rather inevitable nowadays that small fish will be caught.. and is it wrong to take a photo prior to release as a keepsake/ isnt it better to have something like a photo to have than bringing the fish home to show people before being fed to the family cat or dumped in the bin?

and on a near final note.. am I the only one that would be worried no small undersized fish were being caught? even though they are a bycatch and not what is being sought after by anglers who truly call them selves anglers, if the numbers of undersized fish stopped showing up all together that would worry me, i'd want to know where they are, why they are no longer around.. dont forget that the smaller fish alot of the time take shelter in close away from the majority of larger predatory species.. if the small fish disappear.. then the larger fish will soon follow until there will be no fish at all.. then what do we do.. take up golf?? i don't think so...

at least all(very large majority) of the undersized fish that are caught by true anglers that do get photographed also get released back to to brave the elements of being a small fish in a large body of water, its a different matter altogether when a photo of even one dead undersized fish its posted, it sometimes happens and the poster of the fish usually gets a barrage of abuse and quickly learns not to do it again...
the key word that should be used is EDUCATE.. people should learn they keep the fishes welfare at mind there will be more fish for future generations, there's nothing wrong with taking a quick photo, as long as you have the camera at hand and not in the bottom of the tackle box under everything or back in the car..

so if you do catch a small(undersized) fish.. celebrate it.. but please release it as quick and carefully as possible..(common sense)

that's my whole thought about it..

was there undersize fish back in the seventies , i think fish and let fish(just not off youghal bridge)

Back again. Steve referred to mini species which is a different category altogether and one which I am not referencing. By undersize I mean undersize. The small boats festival for example is a species competition a facet of which is to target mini species like blennies, in my mind that is OK as the anglers are kitted up to take the fishes welfare into account.

To put an individual perspective on this. I started angling in 1971 at the age of ten. By 1992 the fishing that I was used to had died and what we have today became the norm, and even that is still declining.

Sorrento Point used to throw up 1.5lb Dabs. Pollack to specimen size could be caught off the back of Dalkey Island. Killiney Bay from inside sorrento point south to woodbrook golf club was paved with large plaice. I once had two five pound+ fish in the boat, and the number of two - fours doesn't bare thinking about. Codling off the station and again large plaice.

To Greystones, shore fishing produced Codling (late June 1981, ten fish to 44lbs ungutted at the river in Ballygannon). Ray to 14.50 lbs off Killoughter, I know lads who caught twenty pounders. 21 Plaice in an afternoon to 3.5lbs, not one under 30cms, Black Sole to 4.lb+ on consecutive nights landed by my father and uncle not 50 meters off the second river along Ballygannon. Shoals of Mackerel that one could not comprehend, the smell of the oil and the sea like a slick covered in loose scales.

This is not nostalgia, but my very recent experience, and one which I believe can be restored for all to enjoy in the future. The first twenty years that I fished, in particular the first ten, are my baseline. Small fish did not come into it, this has to be understood by people before they comment on my particular stance. No way am I living in the past, on the contrary, I know what is missing and that is why I strive for quality. We can all have it again, you just got to believe and fight your case.

i see nothing wrong with taking a pic of under size fish . im running kids comps and i see nothing wrong with taking pics of the kids with their catches and posting them . to a child a 10cm pin is as good as a 40lb shark and they love having their pics taken with them.

fintan

Excellent Thread with some very good point on both sides, sorry I have not been able to chime in until now.

From my own point of view, I don't think Anglers here should be posting pictures of only big fish, expecially if the purpose of such excercise is to show our angling friends accross the globe that there is good fishing in Ireland. We would simply be Lying to the world and as a result we are doing an injustice to ourselves and angling in Ireland.

It's is apt that such a thread should hit SAI at a time when Ireland is starting to look at boosting Tourisim again.
For years Ireland has had many, many anglers from all over Europe and beyond visit her shores for some excellent fishing. Many, Many European anglers would time their annual family holidays around fishing trips to Ireland and generate excellent revenue to the Irish economy. This revenue was taken for granted during the Celtic Tiger years....... This revenue is there no More

In General Angling in Ireland is but a shadow of what it was in previous years. FACT.

I used to fish Loughs Corrib and Mask a few times a year.. I have noticed over the last 5 years that the number of touring anglers is way down. Sure the few guides are kept busy enough, but the numbers visiting to the area are WAY down. I myself stoped going last year. I have a friend that lives in the aea and the fishing did not improve at all last year. You can see why with the many viral water outbreaks in the drinking water. This is the stuff that was hitting the taps .... One can only imagine what the actual lake water is like.

Similar can be said for the many other fresh water lakes and rivers. FN's and others have decimitated fish stocks right accros the country... Now previous visiting anglers simply go else where for their fishing. Many Irish anglers are following and now plan trips abroad to get some good fishing. This revenue alone must be worth somthing, but from the massive in-action by all concerned, It doesn't look like it.

When is comes to the SEA Angling in Ireland, I think this has sufferest the most in the previous 5 - 8 years or so. I think the decline in the quality of Sea fishing in the past 3 years alone is frighting, and anyone thinking of visiting here for good Sea Angling should think twice.

Where are all the wreck Pollock and Coalfish gone
There was a decent number of these fish on wrecks just 3 years ago. Now they have nearly been netted out. There is the odd decent trip reported, but as you can see from reports on SAI, the fish just are not there any more. Pollock were fetching €100 a box in Kerry early in 2009. As a direct result I noticed a dramitic decline in size and numbers of Pollock when I was there in July 2009. If this happes again this year and next, will there be any pollock on the Kerry Reefs come summer time

Where are all the double figure Ling gone
There was a time when lads would move because Ling would be too quick to their Cod Baits.... I can't remember a complait like this in a long time. Now all that's left are those that escape the tangle nets... typically much smaller fish.

This brings us to our beloved Cod. There has not been a Cod run of note is 3 years......!!! There current reports on SAI confirm the dire situation in the South. East coast anglers have come accustomed to the lack of Cod, will our Southern Anglers have to do the same Unless there is some serious protection for this species they could be wiped out. This is not my opinion, this is scientific fact and is published in many places. The fact that Cod are targeted most heavily when they shoal to spawn says it all really. There should be a 5 year closed season for Cod for all.

Sure there are a few decent fish to be caught if you have some very specific information, as Ashley has shown above. This is only because there is not much commecicial interest in Smooth Hounds, Tope or Mullet, although this is changing. Bass are protected although this protection is not enforced to any degree that I have ever seen. Many anglers frequently come accross nets set for Bass.

Unless there is a RADICAL change is fisheries management and protection policies, I for one would be telling any angler thinking of visiting Ireland, to spend a few quid more and visit somewhere with some consistent and often excellent fishing. Let this goverment and it's Tourisim and Fishery protection bodies know that they will not be getting your tourist Euro, Dollar or Yen, until they Actually Do something to start protecting angling in Ireland. They don't need to re-invent the wheel, there is already much published information and papers on fisheries protection in the EU and USA available for a start............. but please, stop doing nothing

Back again. Steve referred to mini species which is a different category altogether and one which I am not referencing. By undersize I mean undersize. The small boats festival for example is a species competition a facet of which is to target mini species like blennies, in my mind that is OK as the anglers are kitted up to take the fishes welfare into account.

To put an individual perspective on this. I started angling in 1971 at the age of ten. By 1992 the fishing that I was used to had died and what we have today became the norm, and even that is still declining.

Sorrento Point used to throw up 1.5lb Dabs. Pollack to specimen size could be caught off the back of Dalkey Island. Killiney Bay from inside sorrento point south to woodbrook golf club was paved with large plaice. I once had two five pound+ fish in the boat, and the number of two - fours doesn't bare thinking about. Codling off the station and again large plaice.

To Greystones, shore fishing produced Codling (late June 1981, ten fish to 44lbs ungutted at the river in Ballygannon). Ray to 14.50 lbs off Killoughter, I know lads who caught twenty pounders. 21 Plaice in an afternoon to 3.5lbs, not one under 30cms, Black Sole to 4.lb+ on consecutive nights landed by my father and uncle not 50 meters off the second river along Ballygannon. Shoals of Mackerel that one could not comprehend, the smell of the oil and the sea like a slick covered in loose scales.

This is not nostalgia, but my very recent experience, and one which I believe can be restored for all to enjoy in the future. The first twenty years that I fished, in particular the first ten, are my baseline. Small fish did not come into it, this has to be understood by people before they comment on my particular stance. No way am I living in the past, on the contrary, I know what is missing and that is why I strive for quality. We can all have it again, you just got to believe and fight your case.

I think this post Ashley, confirms the serious inaction by all on the decline in fishing in Ireland. If we were to wait until we see some of these fish again before we post a pic, we might as well shut the site down. Unless there is a Radical change, we will enver see this quality again. We are starting to see some small improvement on the East Coast with recent reductions in the numbers of Boats working the area, but we need to make sure more is done, ot there will be nothing left in a few years. We need to show these pics of small fish along with the big fish pics of years ago, and tell the goverment, This is why no Angling tourists are interested in visiting Ireland any more.

Kev

Kevin

yes ashley i also remember all youve said also at that time cork and kerry boasted huge fish onthe boats . cod and pollock up to 20lb were standard catches .there not there any more. same with kilmore i dont know when i heard of a 20lb cod been caught down there.we have to remember our fishing fleet was hugly expanded in the mid seventies. trawlers were upgraded to super trawlers huge grants given to fisherman to upgrade and so the clean out started where boats used to go fishing for 2 days could stay out for weeks looking at it now the amount of spanish fleets and french trawlers that used to be arrested at that time dident help .they had a mother ship which they all loaded on to at sea and even when it was full a second mother ship was ready to start loading it doesent take a rocket scientist to work out were its gone.not just the fish
but there habitat as well .the only place that was un touched was over the reefs its the one place they coulent trawl.
then the recession in the catch finally came quotas dropped fishermen lost homes and boats the gravy train derailed it self
men who had upgraded soon found that the bigger boat could not make its living in our waters. there just wasent enough
fish to pay wages and bills. this is what has happened not just here but world wide and its over due that we paid something back before all we will have left is dogfish and crabs

Unless there is a RADICAL change is fisheries management and protection policies, I for one would be telling any angler thinking of visiting Ireland, to spend a few quid more and visit somewhere with some consistent and often excellent fishing. Let this goverment and it's Tourisim and Fishery protection bodies know that they will not be getting your tourist Euro, Dollar or Yen, until they Actually Do something to start protecting angling in Ireland. They don't need to re-invent the wheel, there is already much published information and papers on fisheries protection in the EU and USA available for a start............. but please, stop doing nothing

Incredible words MAC - powerful and accurate.

Unless there is a RADICAL change is fisheries management and protection policies, I for one would be telling any angler thinking of visiting Ireland, to spend a few quid more and visit somewhere with some consistent and often excellent fishing. Let this goverment and it's Tourisim and Fishery protection bodies know that they will not be getting your tourist Euro, Dollar or Yen, until they Actually Do something to start protecting angling in Ireland. They don't need to re-invent the wheel, there is already much published information and papers on fisheries protection in the EU and USA available for a start............. but please, stop doing nothing

Incredible words MAC - powerful and accurate.

huh, are they? your proposal is to attempt to cripple jobs that benifit from angling related tourism in a recession, as tesco says 'every little helps' (never thought i'd agree with tesco). jim you above all people should understand that mac's opinion is senceless, do you not benifit from tourist coming to ireland to sample our bass fishing? our forte? if somene asks me, 'what do you think about coming to ireland for an angling holiday?' il tell them the thruth, its got some amazing places to fish, some beautiful unspoilt beaches and rock marks. great hospitality, great food, great pints, great bass fishing, decent boat fishing and the oppertunity to really rack up some rare and unusual species, but don't come overexpectant on the basis of henry gilbey's films and sea anglers dribble.

and in relation to ashley's remarks, and i can hardly seeing a potential tourist go, 'eric? there seems to be a lot of small fish reported in sea angling ireland, i dont think il go to ireland now'.

lets get through these economic tough times, by encouraging as much incoming revenue from other countries as possible and not add another nail in the coffin. then when we get back to stable economic growth you can worry about your vandetas, but now is not the time.

This debate has been excellent because it shows the concerns and viewpoints that sea anglers have right around the country. One facet of the debate that is glaringly obvious and I believe is creating misunderstanding is the benchmark that people associate with good angling.

Eric's last point needs to be considered in a wider context. Why are JimH and Ashley Hayden putting forward an argument which face value might mitigate from people visiting this country. The reality is the opposite. We have seen what good sea fishing this country had to offer but now offers, albeit of an excellent quality, only in a targeted way. We believe that through proper coordinated management and development that those conditions can exist again. For that to happen a sea change in thinking has to happen at the top and work down. On this side of the pond, from EU level to Government level, and then on into the various Dept's and Agencies. That momentum has to be driven by the people or it will not happen, history tells us that.

Th Striped Bass fishery in America locals on the east coast will tell you is better than it ever was, likewise the trout streams in Montana. It took many years to achieve this, but it happened, again through the people. We in Ireland have not reached so to speak the people point, but we are getting there. I started this thread questioning images of small fish only because as a kid I knew what a big fish was. We have to strive for that big fish, and not one, but hundreds and thousands, because that is my memory. I suppose in essence today's small fish was my big fish. Strive for that big fish.