Illegal shooting of seals

well colum foskin you might not like my opinions. buts thats all they are opinions .yes they look friendly and so graceful in the water .but with the expirience of been attacked by one with my 7 year old on board you might not think of me as a disgrace.had my boat been any smaller like an orkney or simular we would have been in the water. unprovoked i might add.the facts are, there is too many of them in howth.and even when they do get injured. the santuary nurses them back to health and puts them straight back in .the small area around howth/irelands eye from the bailey to the stack and to the harbour there has to be 150- 200 seals a cull is needed urgently just ask any of the boaters mooring in howth harbour.as other posters has said its coming a death because of a seal attack is on the cards.they dont fear us because most of them have been hand reared its because of this interference with nature we now have them like a vermin .and i dont think anybody will then think how cuddly they are.i wont apoligize for not liking seals i have seen a side of them you havent

first of all i am a qualified diver who has dived with seals regularly so i am more then aware of them and ive seen em try to get on divers under water and biting gear too pulling at fins and so on.but thats tough sh*t for me and the divers its there sea not ours.if i dont want the chance of a bad encounter then ill stay at home same goes for you and anyone else fishing.with regards the ones at the saltees i dived with those very seals 2 weeks ago at back of great saltee big ones to0 and very curious and im sure they can even be aggresive at times.they are always there its a seal sanctuary not just a fishing spot for us. if i dont like it then i wont go.again same goes for anyone fishing.its part of going near or in the sea.i like fishing like anyone else but at the end of the day you .want to be 100% safe or not lose tackle do something else or put up with it.thats my opinion so yes I have seen the side you have.don't like it? = don't go.

thats a very simple philosophy but this is the real world colum.would you still have those thoughs if a seal was the cause of a human fatality?say a child in a kayak or sailing skip? which goes on a lot in howth. at the end of the day its not there water there not at the top of the food chain. and they have just moved in there .because they certainly wernt there 3 years ago certainly not in the numbers there at now.this has only come to a head in the last 2 years.now i dont know where the sudden population boom has come from [in howth].as for me going some where else i give my hard earned money to moor my boat and pay a licence to the dept of the marine for the privilige of fishing in howth so i think im entitled to expect to be able to do that without been attacked by some treehuggers x pet.if these were wild seals they would not look for human contact but stay well away from the boats.

well agree to differ.after all its just opinions.theyll be there either way the next time you or anyone else goes there.that aint gonna change.if they were bothering me id go elsewhere thats just me thou

Seals have been in Howth Harbour for more then three years (when I was workin directly with them they were there over 12 years ago) last trip out to Howth counted 7 greys in the Harbour, checkin old records there was 5 (including one of the old familiar one George as he was known, he had a scar on his right nostril) most I have counted in the Harbour was 12 last summer, (4 males and the rest females) but as I said before a cull will only open up new terriorty and the introduction of more seals, A study was carried out in Scotland back in the late 90's... they carried out several techniques,, Proactive cull (shoot on sight total elimination in one area), Active cull (reducing numbers on a year basis), and a Natural area (banning commercial fishing boats) They wanted to see which methods would help with thier reduce fish stocks and the areas were selected by the Scottish Heritage..

Active cull and Proactive cull made no impact on stocks whatsoever (they carried out these tests for a full year) they found the proactive cull the most expensive to run as in fuel, shells, and pure manpower.
the Natural was found to be the biggest impact, the area they banned fishing boats! Stocks soared (they used fish sounders, and anglers to find the species)

While I will agree with Twinkle comments regarding safety, the idea of shooting a seal because its in an area isn't on... 1st, The Grey seal travels vast distances they'll hang in a harbour for a while then move off, only the bigger males tend to stay for any lenght of time, 2nd seals behaviour teaches us they are creatures of simple needs, fish, rest, and females, thus when you make life hard for them they will move off, hence put a ban on feeding seals in Harbours.. for starters, We have all seen people feeding seals from boats as well (personally i think thats insane!!) and that must be stopped!
The Grey males generally get agressive around breeding time (June) the females give birth 9 months later if she figures this male is worth the effort (seriously, she can keep the "fluid" ((incase kids are readin, lads))) up to 10 months or flush it out), when the Greys form up a colony the way the system works is .. the biggest male will mate with about 9-14 cows (female grey seals) They generally mate under water (sidenote: I can barely handle one woman !!), he'll normally haul himself out and protect his harem from the advances of other males, while younger smaller males wait in the water for any passing females. this is when the males can get really agressive and hence why now and again you see seals behaving they way they do with divers. (they must view as some sort of practice )

In my experience with seals, althought I have been bitten (you get a tube shoved down your neck of course your gonna bite someone!!) generally they are passive enough creatures BUT to a fault, hence were they lost the fear of humans, remembering they are relatives of the bear family (workin with adult seals, as well as pups) a fully grown male seal 550lb does have the power to rip a limb clean off, but they dont (try that with the next grizzlely you come across!!) I know of people who have been swimming with seals and have been bitten, and heres the thing .. while these animals have vast power, the people came away with grazes, scraps, and teeth marks... (to be honest enough to frighten the crap out of anyone!!)

But the encounters with seals that frighten me the most are the ones were a seals will swipe a boat, (come right up to the boat and bang it) showing a dominace, and when a seal tries to haul on to a boat (coming right out the water chest high) and of course biting. But we have to look at the root cause for this behaviour which invloves first and foremost human interactions with seals. People feeding them from boats & piers etc... Again if look we at other countries and they way they deal with these issues I'm sure we can come up with an effective way both in cost and sustainablity to deal with problem seals that doesn't require a shoot.
One system I have heard of is a mild electronic shock, a seal comes near the nets (they use this for salmon netting) and zap, seal swims off rather sore, why ... the whiskers on a seal are 10,000 times more powerful then the touch in your finger tips, another method, a bang under the water I have seen a seal nearly clear the water, If you go to Dun Laoghaire harbour and see The Sea Cat coming in you'll notice most seals vacate the area well ahead of its arrival (they can feel it coming!)

Don't get me wrong, I like seeing seals in the wild, I have had no issues with them apart from chasin the odd fish. regarding tackle loses, I have had more tackle loses due to snaggy ground, and sea weed!! (lost a brilliant trace due to a shopping cart once!!!) grrrr shoot all shopping carts!!!
When I get time I have some great shots of seals for Identification purposes which will help gain a better understanding
Tightlines all

Oh just for information; When I worked with various Sancturies, it wasnt a simply case of .. ok lets throw the seal back to where it was found, it was well researched, and most locations where away from harbour areas, more aimed at a seal colony if possible for the younger ones (so they could be taught how to fish by other seals, they mainly ambush fish in kelp) for the older ones any strech of isolated beach would do, due to the simple fact when released the older seals tend to travel great distances.
And I would really really like to dispell this myth that the seals were "molly coddled" most people that worked in the sanctuary like that of the ISS were Marine Biologist, vets studing for wildlife degrees, experienced animal handlers (these people travel the world dealing a variety of animals) and on another note seals in the Sanctuary did have a fear of humans, as we constantly took blood samples and gave them injections etc. it wasnt a holiday home for them.

great now were getting down to numbers which is the big issue in howth. kevin we counted 45 seals 1 day last summer.all in the inner harbour beside the harbour office. thats nearly 4 times the amount you have seen.we then went to the back of islands eye and there was 4 working the boats between the tower and the stack.we headed then to balscadden and had then only had 3 to contend with go around the corner and took the drift from the nose to the bailey and encountered up to 6.now some of these followed us from irelands eye.they have it down to a fine art.and this might sound ridiculas but i think they push the macks towards the feathers.as they know its an easier meal.its just impossible to avoid them .and im telling you honestly there was nothing like that amount 2 years ago.also there is a large bull with about 4 sets of sabikis wrapped on his head he was the most identiable of all them and the most persistant.he followed us out to the burford bank and attacked anything we tried to land with the exception of doggies. we packed up after an hour and with in 10 minutes of getting to the back of islands eye back up he pops.the seals have never been in these numbers in howth and thats why i reckon fishermen take the law into there own hands and do there own cull because no ones listening.

great now were getting down to numbers which is the big issue in howth. kevin we counted 45 seals 1 day last summer.all in the inner harbour beside the harbour office. thats nearly 4 times the amount you have seen.we then went to the back of islands eye and there was 4 working the boats between the tower and the stack.we headed then to balscadden and had then only had 3 to contend with go around the corner and took the drift from the nose to the bailey and encountered up to 6.now some of these followed us from irelands eye.they have it down to a fine art.and this might sound ridiculas but i think they push the macks towards the feathers.as they know its an easier meal.its just impossible to avoid them .and im telling you honestly there was nothing like that amount 2 years ago.also there is a large bull with about 4 sets of sabikis wrapped on his head he was the most identiable of all them and the most persistant.he followed us out to the burford bank and attacked anything we tried to land with the exception of doggies. we packed up after an hour and with in 10 minutes of getting to the back of islands eye back up he pops.the seals have never been in these numbers in howth and thats why i reckon fishermen take the law into there own hands and do there own cull because no ones listening.

So you are telling people to go get guns and shoot any seals that they see....?

So you are telling people to go get guns and shoot any seals that they see....? dont be silly. im refering to the start of this thread which started, if you care to read it, with seals been shot and why people are taking the law into there own hands.

great now were getting down to numbers which is the big issue in howth. kevin we counted 45 seals 1 day last summer.all in the inner harbour beside the harbour office. thats nearly 4 times the amount you have seen.we then went to the back of islands eye and there was 4 working the boats between the tower and the stack.we headed then to balscadden and had then only had 3 to contend with go around the corner and took the drift from the nose to the bailey and encountered up to 6.now some of these followed us from irelands eye.they have it down to a fine art.and this might sound ridiculas but i think they push the macks towards the feathers.as they know its an easier meal.its just impossible to avoid them .and im telling you honestly there was nothing like that amount 2 years ago.also there is a large bull with about 4 sets of sabikis wrapped on his head he was the most identiable of all them and the most persistant.he followed us out to the burford bank and attacked anything we tried to land with the exception of doggies. we packed up after an hour and with in 10 minutes of getting to the back of islands eye back up he pops.the seals have never been in these numbers in howth and thats why i reckon fishermen take the law into there own hands and do there own cull because no ones listening.

I was around the Harbour in those days last year (more looking at the macky bashers casting!!), I never seen 45 seals in the Harbour area personally I wouldnt think there would have been enough room for them to swim. I know people often mistakenly count seals (because of there nature to dive etc.) but I know you have the skills to identify one from the other.
as for the seals following boats its a daily thing, fishing from the cliffs as i said , I have seen boats feeding the seals so before grabbing guns and marching off to the nearest seal colony take a few pot shots at people feed them!
and your right about "Fishermen taking the law into thier own hands" not all are commercial fishermen that shoot seals hobby/sport anglers have been seen as well (one lad fishin for mackerel, saw a seal and shot at it with a .22 at distance in front of a bus full of tourist)
Netters have been seen .. key thing is while we can say their numbers are great! and visual siting are up, if you take account for the entire coastline of Ireland compared with that of seal population and break it down to species of seal (common and Grey) the numbers arent that great, furthermore between Scotland and Ireland we are the few countries in Europe that have seals. Hence why they are protected by EU law.

Now while we are on the topic of illegal seal kills, there was an illegal cull carried out some years back (Beginish Seal Slaughter, google it) 66 grey seal mainly pups were beaten to death, some shot, the pups still with the laguna fur (white fur) killed, very few adults were killed. No arrest were ever made despite €10k reward. Did it solve the seal problem... nope.. seals came back the following year and recolonised the island again, only more this time. the thing is Culls on the Grey seals have no major effect, the reason being is they travel move around. was down in the Harbour last week and saw one seal, so it begs the question where have the 45 seals moved to?? also when you saw the 45 seals in the harbour was there a trawler unloading the far end?

Hence why I have been blathering on about scaring the seals away from boats. This is a fairly emotioned packed issue, which I know all to well from both sides. The way I veiw seals is simple, as an indicator species, being that they are the apex predator (apart from dolphins and porpoises), if there are seals about there are fish, if there are no seals about the fishin isnt that great... and by the way, I had the same experience about a female seal pushing macks on to my sets!!!! but she never chased the line

I'm nearly sure i know that bull you mentioned!! amazing as i said before .. which ones cause the main hassle? the Males

I was think there as well, about the dangers of seals, the most dangerous animal in the world and an animal that has claimed hundreds of lives over the years.. the Hippo, but they never call for a cull on it, same with Great Whites, Tigers etc

this has been one of the best threads we have had in a while. and my conclusions i get from this and the answers given by posters are, man is the problem here.by us interfering with santuaries and hand rearing them they are no longer nervous of us.and are quiet prepared to confront us now rather than back away.the problem in howth was also exaggerated by fishmongers making thousands of euro with fish bags to feed the seals in the harbour.this was stopped last season so maybe with them not been fed they wont hang around in the numbers that were there.i look forward to getting back to fishing and hopefully there all gone back to were ever they came from as theres no more free dinners in howth a special thanks to creep for all the info given

this has been one of the best threads we have had in a while. and my conclusions i get from this and the answers given by posters are, man is the problem here.by us interfering with santuaries and hand rearing them they are no longer nervous of us.and are quiet prepared to confront us now rather than back away.the problem in howth was also exaggerated by fishmongers making thousands of euro with fish bags to feed the seals in the harbour.this was stopped last season so maybe with them not been fed they wont hang around in the numbers that were there.i look forward to getting back to fishing and hopefully there all gone back to were ever they came from as theres no more free dinners in howth a special thanks to creep for all the info given

Thanks Twinkle,
I do enjoy a good well thought debate. But as I said, the seals werent molly coddled in the sanctuaries, they were treated with the respect every predator is treated with, as you would say a lion or tiger. The handrearing of seals have no evidence of them becoming less afraid of humans, speaking from expereince in fact.. one seal pup that came in proved that fact all to well, he came in with cronic lung worm, and hence over 4 months of treatment (injections and tubes etc.) he learnt, when he saw me coming in my sanctuary red jacket he would back up into the corner, growl like a thing possesed, teeth and front flippers frailing, and rip at anything near him. thus anyone wearing red bore the same treatment then we changed into blue clothing and the same happened hence he learnt it wasnt the colour to be afraid of but the human! By the way when that seal was released Paddy Power had a bet on how long it would take him to get into the sea, (some seals were really lazy some would try and get back into the seal box, and others like him, would take off like a greyhound!!!) I lost the bet as the seal went into the wateer far quicker then I would have called it!! (lost €2, yep the last of the big spenders me!!)
Furthermore the reason to the strandings of orphaned seals can be pinned down to mans interfernce, if that be over fishing or illegal seal culls etc. or though winter storms. And when people find these animals stranded on beaches, its well within human nature to want to help, as you would an injured dog/cat at the side of the road.

Furthermore I think its vital that issues that are sensitive as this are discussed, and to seek answers to the issues, finding solutions through everybodies input is key, as I said before this is a great website. One of the best out there in the WWW kingdom...

Now how we gonna solve this whole government issue?!?!? Do we grab the shotguns again???

Now how we gonna solve this whole government issue?!?!? Do we grab the shotguns again??? no i dont fancy fighting the germans it will interfere with my fishing.

Now how we gonna solve this whole government issue?!?!? Do we grab the shotguns again??? no i dont fancy fighting the germans it will interfere with my fishing.

True too true fishin is far more important!!

Do seals carry Rabies!!!!!!!!!!,???????. they seem to b a lot more of em about, theres about 10 thay live down the road from were i live.......5 years back there wasnt any.........

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Quick search produced this information Cortaz:wink:

There is no doubt that marine mammals are adorable. They look so sweet and gentle; you just want to run up and give them a little squeeze. After all, what's the harm in walking up to a seal on the beach, or tossing a fish to a seal in the ocean? How about letting the dog play with one of them-they are playful, curious creatures, right? A lot of people are surprised to hear that it is dangerous for us and our pets to approach a wild seal. These animals have very sharp, bacteria covered teeth. Seals will bite if they are frightened, surrounded, cornered or sick. Seals can carry many different diseases such as rabies, that can be transferred to other mammals. Observing these amazing creatures is an awesome experience, just be sure to do it from a distance.

I know shooting them is illegal, im just wondering if you found one on a beach would you get away with clubbing it like the canadians do

Hi John, Your right about a seal biting, if you managed to sneak up on one that is, the ones in the photo above are the Common seals, However seals generally DON'T carry the rabies Virus, they however can and do carry the marine form of Distemper Virus, yes their teeth are covered in bacteria, oddly enough similar to that of a feral cat, and if bitten a person can develop what is commonly called Seal Finger (among the seal clubber in Canada it was wide spread. However if bitten, the same medical treatment is applied as a normal dog bite which is Oxytrincylin (I think I spelt that wrong) but it’s a straight antibiotic

[Creep]

Hi John, Your right about a seal biting, if you managed to sneak up on one that is, the ones in the photo above are the Common seals, However seals generally DON'T carry the rabies Virus, they however can and do carry the marine form of Distemper Virus, yes their teeth are covered in bacteria, oddly enough similar to that of a feral cat, and if bitten a person can develop what is commonly called Seal Finger (among the seal clubber in Canada it was wide spread. However if bitten, the same medical treatment is applied as a normal dog bite which is Oxytrincylin (I think I spelt that wrong) but it’s a straight antibiotic

Out of 300 seals held up in the ISS not one tested positive for rabies virus in both Common or Greys

And yep clubbing seals is Ilegal as well, under the wildlife act, and E.U. wildlife act, now I'm not sure if you meant taking them Night Clubbing though!! out to a local disco!

Last edited by Creep on Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hey Gang i found something that i think we'd seriously be interested in ... a Seal Replllent!!! --->
http://www.canada.com/Vancouver+Island+ ... story.html

Very interesting thread lads and fair play to the two main contributors for not getting involved in any point scoring nonsense. Interesting and informative.

Hey Gang i found something that i think we'd seriously be interested in ... a Seal Replllent!!! --->
http://www.canada.com/Vancouver+Island+ ... story.html

i think an email to this gent and il offer to test it rigorlessly over here but i dont think it would take them long to get used to the sound of it.there clever bastardos.maybe if i paint the hull black and white it might have the right effect

Watched Martin clunes snorkelling with seals last night on Islands of britain, was pretty spectacular!