stupid rules

ok lets agree to disagree, you stick to your specimen hunting and we'll carry on doing what we do. i get the same buzz off landing a 20cm fish during a comp as i do smoothy or bass fishing, its all fishing to me. as rodger put it; 'its what floats your boat'.

oneillphill, our impact on fish stocks is so minute its not worth talking about, on trawl from a trawlers nets would probably kill more whiting then any of the east coast comps put together.

rodger if you award 1 point per cm of fish, this will surley garantee the targeting of undersize fish, the average undersize fish of say for arguments sake, is 16cm, so instead of five points each, their 16 pts. thats fine by me, but its kinda contradicting yourself.

Some good stuff being posted on this subject and it's all healthy debate amongst adults so no toys out of prams if we don't all agree.

For Juvenile comps I do believe that catching any fish is the most important aspect of the time fishing, and with that in mind I think that under 12's in a comp should be allowed to measure anything caught. It will keep their interest and hopefully sow the seeds for the future. I'm guessing most Juvenile sections of clubs fish seperately from Seniors and if so the clubs should ensure nobody walks off a beach disappointed after a day spent fishing. This is the adults responsibility if they want future anglers. Where there is an open comp provisions must be made to accomodate the Juv's, size limits for Seniors and measure all for Juv's under 12.

There isn't a magic solution to this Undersize issue but regardless of which, I do with certainty know that the better anglers always come out on top. I don't agree with the To Help Our Lads When Away Theory, if your on the team you know your stuff, hows catching a million Whiting in Wicklow gonna help you do well in Brazil? Min Hook size makes no difference to the small fish caught, there isn't a fish in our seas that couldn't swallow a 1/o hook with a small bait, now instead of 1 lug and and macky tip try put 6 lug and half a crab on that same hook and see how many small fish you get. Min hook size makes no difference at all but the bait on them does!

So in summary who wants to take up casting instead?

Yes labyrinth i did read your post i just didn't agree with any of it.

your 1st paragraph
"Fish size limits for competition fishing have always been a reflection on current fish stocks.
In my opinion a further reduction to 18cm is badly needed
at the end of the day we need to be seen to be green to the public"
So you want to seem green to the public, green meaning conservation, meaning increasing fish stocks i presume. But you want to reduce the size limit to catch more small fish would this not do the oppisite.

You say you want to recruit young anglers but then in your reply to me you say "The public have little or no interest in our sport" surely the public are where you need to recruit these young anglers from. So maybe it does matter how we are seen by these extremists as you call them.

I didn't mention a hook size limit but it was mentioned in previous posts, in general a size 3/0 Min is what i use, the small fish who do get hooked can't get the hook too far into their mouths meaning easy unhooking and a quick release, and when that big one does turn up you just might have a chance to hook it.

I didn't say there were only small fish out there either that was from your post and your rational for lowering the size limit so anglers can have a bag of "counters".
But as you say you feel bloody great realing in an 18cm fish for some points in a comp and it doesn't matter how small the fish get thats why your sport will never die, aahhh that's the kind of fishing story that will bring plenty of young anglers just running in to join up.

Another line from you reply
"Yes all that's left are small fish so lets catch whats there"
is this so there will be less and less left to grow up.

There are still some big ones out there and i prefer to try target them for the chance of some sport and not their babies for a tackle shop voucher.

Have to agree with roger on this one, a lot of clubs now measure all fish regardless of size. Match fishing is all about quantitiy and speed and i was amazed as I recently restarted match fishing to see lads running around trying to keep up with all the small fish they were catching.

As regard to attracting and retaining new anglers (young or older) i think this will mirror quality of fish available to anglers. For younger anglers maybe we should be trying to get them to enjoy fishing as oppossed to fishing match's. kids want to catch fish first (bigger the better) and maybe they will get a prize (to encourae them) but winning should not be the focus for young anglers it should be developing their skills.

People being competitive will always want to test themselves against each other but the current match scene seems to reward speed and the not the abiltiy to find and catch fish above a size limit. I have seen match rigs with size 10 hooks which seems to me to be targeting small fish and yes that angler won the match with a load of undersize (20cm) fish and so if i want to compete i must drop my hook size and this is the problem. The curent rules are rewarding targeting undersize fish.

Adam

each to their own lads,but in my opinion there is absolutely no skill involved in targeting/catching baby fish in a feeding frenzy,any fool can do it.now to go out,target and catch a large bass or sea trout for example takes skill,patience and knowledge.similar to phil i tend never to use smaller than 2/0,now i will blank alot but still enjoy the great outdoors,when i catch what i`ve gone out after it makes it all the better.if the greater public knew what went on at these ridiculous competitions all anglers might be viewed no differently than trawlermen so cop on lads there is no justification for targetting baby fish.up hook size to at least 1/0,up the size limit to at least 30cm and if no counting fish are caught in a given competition then so be it,youve still gotten out and had a good day/evening.

another point i would make is this seems to be more an east coast thing with the whiting

most of the comps out west that ive been in the last few years have many blanking participants

a handful of counters between 20 anglers another handful of undersize and then blanks

most comps have less cards returned than competitors - even with downsizing of hooks the tiddlers just arent there in numbers to make up the undersize points argument work

you still basically are better off with bigger hooks and trying to get 2-3 counters to win a comp

now lets not bring up a standards of competition argument - but this is the usual result in most comps in connaught from the shore

People being competitive will always want to test themselves against each other but the current match scene seems to reward speed and the not the abiltiy to find and catch fish above a size limit. I have seen match rigs with size 10 hooks which seems to me to be targeting small fish and yes that angler won the match with a load of undersize (20cm) fish and so if i want to compete i must drop my hook size and this is the problem. The curent rules are rewarding targeting undersize fish.

Adam

Size 10s is a ridiculious hook size you are getting into course fishing tactics the smallest hook size should be set at size 2s and no smaller, i have no proplem with the 20cm size limit,
as for junior anglers they just want to catch fish whatever size they are.
I stand to be corrected here but i think that size limit for the Home Nations under SALC is 18cm and hook minimum is size 4.
Under IFSA rules apparenly there is no size limit on measure and release.
It is down to each club to set the size limits for their comps.
David

Just to respond to some of the points above, as one who spends an awful lot of time both pleasure fishing and match angling. Firstly, match angling is a very competitive sport and its as far removed from pleasure fishing as Carp angling is from rock fishing etc. The fact of the matter is you can only catch whats in front of you, should that be mini whiting, 10lb bass, postage stamp sized flounder then so be it. If thats all you have in front of you then thats all you can catch. Its been said many times above, on occasion when you are dealing with a massive invasion of whiting or whatever, there is very little way of avoiding them, no matter what tactics you use. It has to be remembered that match angling is not everybodies cup of tea, in the same way that sitting at the side of a canal filling a keepnet with mini stuff isn't mine. Club tactics within SAI are not geared to prepare the lads for brazil or wherever, they are there to prepare our lads for firstly the Masters and secondly the fish offs, that is all.

Its worth remembering also, and I reiterate what I said earlier, not every comp is going to turn into a whiting fest. They have pretty much left our beaches down this neck of the woods at this stage. I agree, there is little skill in pulling treble after treble of whiting out when they are on song, but there is even less skill involved in unrealistic size limits and an odd few lucky fish.

Its a sport, its a competitive sport and there has to be a fair system in selecting a winner. The US points have been used for several years in Connacht where, on scratchy flounder venues and the like, they work very well in seperating an angler who is fishing well but struggling to get a fish to size (remember, he can only catch whats in front of him) as opposed to a jammy angler pulling out 1 fish that makes the stick.

We would all like to see the days return whereby a 30cm size limit was feasible, however in this day and age it is not. I would have more concern to be honest on the negative effects of these shoals of transient small fish swarming on beaches and in our estuaries leaving an area devoid of food for resident species than I would of the welfare of a bucket of pins but thats for another day.

Pleasure fishing is a different story, noone wants to catch the little feckers on a pleasure session so hence forth we pick venues and adjust tackle and times to actively seek out something worthwhile. In a comp, you dont have that luxury. I speak as someone who enjoys both, Match fishing is NOT pleasure fishing and it never will be. These little pests will always be caught, the real issue is whether or not you allow points for them. If they are going to be caught anyway then I see nothing wrong in rewarding the angler who caught them, that is all.

Dogfish, i could not agree more i am currently using size 2 hooks for a match which i would consider small but with the current rules as they are if you want to win size 2 seems too big. So you either drop hook sizes or dont fish in match's

Jaysus Roger look what you started, I have to agree 100% with Pete the size limit is fine and I have no problem with 5pts for US fish, When the pin whiting are on they're on you would need at least size 3/0 hooks to avoid them.

Point of info.

Minimum hook size for this years Home Nations in Wales is Size 10.

ok lets agree to disagree,

rodger if you award 1 point per cm of fish, this will surley garantee the targeting of undersize fish, the average undersize fish of say for arguments sake, is 16cm, so instead of five points each, their 16 pts. thats fine by me, but its kinda contradicting yourself.

now eric lets not agree to disagree ,in your statement above is where lies the problem people like you will fish this way cos you have lost sight of what angling is about and the fact that you would be delighted to fish for small fish and get loads of points per cm and feck the impact you are having on the fish!imagine i went into a petshop and started pulling out little fish and killing them for fun dont think many people would think me sane ,yes we will catch small fish even on bigger hooks but with a clear concience that we are not targeting them and have done all we can to prevent it happening,and the fact is that the rules we have are forcing anglers to target undersize fish

I like killing little fish
only messing
your never going to be able to stop catching small fish ive had whitting on big hooks that the sandeel i was using was bigger than the fish. All we can do is try to put them back as gently as we can and hope they survive but when a shoal of undersize whitting or collies are theres little you can do to target bigger fish as the small ones will take the bait unless you use absalutley huge hooks. i have to admit i like the points for u/s fish as it means theres no blanks on the beach and as alby said once you have a routine its not that bad getting hammered with u/s fish it keeps you warm when its cold and wet.

fintan

You say you want to recruit young anglers but then in your reply to me you say "The public have little or no interest in our sport" surely the public are where you need to recruit these young anglers from. So maybe it does matter how we are seen by these extremists as you call them.

I didn't say there were only small fish out there either that was from your post and your rational for lowering the size limit so anglers can have a bag of "counters".
But as you say you feel bloody great realing in an 18cm fish for some points in a comp and it doesn't matter how small the fish get thats why your sport will never die, aahhh that's the kind of fishing story that will bring plenty of young anglers just running in to join up.

I feel i'm qualified to correct you here as a few years ago i was a young fella(still am one ) just starting to get into the sport.

1. I can tell you right now that no young person getting into the sport without knowing anyone who fishes in the first place, will start fishing no matter what the public think of anglers as a group and if they don't come of their own accord i doubt very much that they will be encoraged to try it if our sport was better known.

Me and a friend started out with the worst gear and no knowledge of how to fish at all. we slowly improved over the space of about 2 years and gradually started to catch more. then we went to our first match and pretty much everything changed. we are now much better fishermen and blank much less often all because of match fishing and catching a few counters.

and your last statement is spot on, young anglers really dont care what size the fish are, as long as they catch something and someone can say to them "lets record that and you will get 5 points" they will leave the beach happy.

I didn't mention a hook size limit but it was mentioned in previous posts, in general a size 3/0 Min is what i use, the small fish who do get hooked can't get the hook too far into their mouths meaning easy unhooking and a quick release, and when that big one does turn up you just might have a chance to hook it.

There are still some big ones out there and i prefer to try target them for the chance of some sport and not their babies for a tackle shop voucher.

so, as you clearly dont match fish, do you know how it feels to walk off the beach for the second comp(or even third) comp in a row with a blank scorecard? its almost enough to make you give up.

and just so you know where i stand, i am in favour of points for smaller fish be it one point or five. i am also pro minimum hook size. it can only be a good thing.

Alex

Meh. Ban competition fishing in it's entirity, that's what I say. Angling for me is all about angler against fish, not angler against angler.

Ban it, I tells ya.

Man is a hunter gather we are competitive by nature in all walks of life no matter what we do we like to be better than anyone else.
If you pleasure fish even if its only for mackerel the competiive beast comes out in us, even driving your car you are competitive first away from the traffic lights we have all done it.
So now here is someone who wants to supress nature "i give in"

Man is a hunter gather we are competitive by nature in all walks of life no matter what we do we like to be better than anyone else.So now here is someone who wants to supress nature "i give in"

mate, if we all still thought like neanderthals and wipe out the little fellas, in 4 or 5 fish generations time not only will there be no 20cm counters to catch, but seeing as you've wiped out the up and coming generations even the tiddlers will be hard come by. we all bang on about the trawlers rampant disregard for killing small fish, who defend the pratice by saying they are staying within the rules set out by government. yet we see fit to shadow the same pratices and defend ourselves by saying we are staying within the rules set out by clubs and associations in an effort of scoring a few points in a comp. at what point will we see sense and re-focus on what's vitally important. THE SURVIVAL OF FUTURE FISH STOCKS . at the end of the day it will be a grim furure for us all, pleasure and match anglers, when theres bugger all out there to be caught if clubs set rules on fish and hook size, fair enough. but when fishing in comps, my own personal choice would be to try to avoid the tiddlers. i know i'm still gonna get them, but i'm certinly not gonna go out and target them. we fish comps to meet other anglers, fish new marks and have a bit of craic. if we do well it's just a bonus. and in regards to young anglers getting on the cards, you can have a far more productive session away from a set time and venue at a match, that's location was decided months before in advance by reading the shore reports in your area on the site my young lad is living proof of that. we all have our own opinions, to which we are ALL fully entitled to. and it's a matter of personal choice. those who feel comfortable targeting young fish will, and those who don't, won't. unfortunatelly that's just life. but we all have an obligation as anglers to play our own part in the conservation and sustainability of stocks if we want our children to do as we have done. just my 2 cents for what they're worth

Ok lads- posts removed and a few pms sent
Keep it civil and on topic -
If you have a problem with a post report it (! bottom right). leave modding to the mods
thanks.

in the last 2 years ive been fishing comps and i have yet to meet anyone who deliberatly targets small fish . even with 5 pts per fish you will still have to catch 4 small fish to match 1 counter so it isnt worth your while targeting them. The only time i would go lower than a 4 in a comp is if i was targeting eels and couldnt pick one up on a size 4.the last comp i fished i had around 34 fish of which around 6 were counters. of these undersize fish i only found 2 dead fish so talking about killing hundreds is a bit over the top. i know that small fish dont survive after comps but can anyone prove that a 20 cm fish will have a better chance after we catch them . i have seen fish of over 30cms not going back and tiddlers swiming off strongly. The main issue is should we get points for the undersize . i think we should because as pete said you can only fish the water thats in front of you and there have been comps were you fish as hard and as good as you can and only get u/size fish you should get something for your effort as it isnt your fault that there u/size

thats the end of my rant

fintan

Jasus Rodger what have you created.

the simple matter of fact is that you are going to catch undersize fish no matter what when fishing comps on the east coast any way. any you can only catch what is in front of you so why not get points for it. its unfortunate that some of the small fish die when returned but a lot dont and the ones that do die arent a dying in vain they just go back into the food chain.

Flew home from Holland after 6 days work got home at midnight.
I got up at 5am went and spent 1hr digging bait got home at 7am. made a fry, spent a couple of hours playing with the kids. left house went to comp. Fished for 5 hrs and caught 14 flounder and turbot betwen 17cm and 19cm. caught 1 fish 21cm. total result 21 pts.

Guy that fished next to me told me he didn't have any worms , hand some frozen mackeral and a packet of sandeels that had be frozen afew times. caught 1 collie 24cm. total result for day 24pts.

I got well beaten by a top angler
I don't mean to catch small fish but I do. I try to make sure there returned ok but sometimes they don't. Will I purposly aim for them no. Will I take 5 points for them. OH YEAH!