Dunlaoghaire-Rathdown restrict angling to designated areas??

Care to share with us the name of this uninterested party?

Better not. It was a voice mail and I deleted it.

I think there must be some anglers on this site who are in her ward (whatever ward that is) that being the case I think you should at least name the ward Jonathon, then those anglers will know what representation they have, or in this case dont have!!

Tom.

Louise Cosgrave, Stillorgan Ward. In fairness, she gave me details of other councillors in beachside locations that I could contact. However, this is a county-wide and even national issue and all councillors should be aware of the issues and should only vote after making themselves aware of the facts.

I got a more positive call later from Tom Kivlehan who said that what was needed was a restriction on angling in small designated areas and only when a "beach guard" was on duty. Outside that, swimmers and other users can use common sense and take care of themselves.

It seems that the councillors have been discussing the angling issue and we're being listened to. I think they're surprised at the lobby that had emerged.

He also made the point that anglers make a very positive contribution, in terms of environmental and other issues. Anglers are typically the first to notice pollution and similar incidents .......

I also had a call this morning from Ciaran Fallon who confessed to knowling very little about angling but was interested in the points that we were making and stressed that a blanket ban was definitely not something that would happen.

One thing I would like to say. Let's not demonize anyone in this process. I think Teacher was right to protect the comment from the non-coastal ward Cllr. And I can only respect his disclosure of the relevent id. Perhaps this person does not understand the whole process of county council representation.. I'm not going to speculate. One thing I will say: We don't need to create enemies that we do not have.

Another point. I received a reply from Cllr Denis O Callaghan
Cathaoirleach - DLRCC and it is, I think, very positive. What Cllr O'Callaghan is proposing is that the blanket ban is gone and that there may be room for compromise between the lifeguards flags
which would disallow fishing while the flags are up.

I think this has the scent of something worthwhile. I still wondering if we can get some other benefits from this, for example. protections for fish nurseries into this.

guys

just a short comment which may be worthless, but it might be worth while contacting the National and Regional Game Council (NARGC) to seek advice on how to adress such 'proposals' as they have had very successful resolutions to other similarly ill thought out proposals which would have affected the shooting community.

They are a very well represented body which have tackled many issues over the years and have much experience.

I understand that not all people who fish participate in shooting sports but it is good to keep in mind that there is safety in numbers and numbers are a stronger voice.

many fishing clubs contain members who also participate in shooting sports and therefore it make sense to come together in times of need and give support to protecting our respective sporting choices.

its just a thought,

if anyone wants direct contact details please PM me.

If my post is deemed inappropriate then I would prefer no comments than derogative ones :D

thank you

guys

just a short comment which may be worthless, but it might be worth while contacting the National and Regional Game Council (NARGC) to seek advice on how to adress such 'proposals' as they have had very successful resolutions to other similarly ill thought out proposals which would have affected the shooting community.

They are a very well represented body which have tackled many issues over the years and have much experience.

I understand that not all people who fish participate in shooting sports but it is good to keep in mind that there is safety in numbers and numbers are a stronger voice.

many fishing clubs contain members who also participate in shooting sports and therefore it make sense to come together in times of need and give support to protecting our respective sporting choices.

its just a thought,

if anyone wants direct contact details please PM me.

If my post is deemed inappropriate then I would prefer no comments than derogative ones :D

thank you

Happyguy,

IMHO your right on the ball....very good suggestion indeed.

Tom.

I think this has the scent of something worthwhile. I still wondering if we can get some other benefits from this, for example. protections for fish nurseries into this.

Honestly, leave this bit out, you don't want to ruffle the feathers of the commercials, they have a powerful lobby and will spend time defending their livelihoods and the only fair protection of a nursery is to ban ALL fishing in those areas, pleasure angling included. The best approach is to come away from this with as LITTLE new legislation as possible, not more.

In the same line, Countryside Alliance Ireland may be another group worth getting in touch with. I think they're big in the UK...

guys

just a short comment which may be worthless, but it might be worth while contacting the National and Regional Game Council (NARGC) to seek advice on how to adress such 'proposals' as they have had very successful resolutions to other similarly ill thought out proposals which would have affected the shooting community.

They are a very well represented body which have tackled many issues over the years and have much experience.

I understand that not all people who fish participate in shooting sports but it is good to keep in mind that there is safety in numbers and numbers are a stronger voice.

many fishing clubs contain members who also participate in shooting sports and therefore it make sense to come together in times of need and give support to protecting our respective sporting choices.

its just a thought,

if anyone wants direct contact details please PM me.

If my post is deemed inappropriate then I would prefer no comments than derogative ones :D

thank you

YES!

They have a very effective lobby and we can only learn from them. Note: I'm not a member but I've heard how effective they are.

It would be a very very good idea for our reps to get in touch with them for a chat at the very least. Likewise with Countryside Alliance Ireland, though I don't know so much about them, they did support StopNow campainging against the driftnets.

I mailed the attached letter of protest on behalf of our club to all on the list provided by DamienS.
Got a response from 7 so far today with an invitation to discuss it in more detail from both Denis O'Callaghan & Tom Kivlehan.
It looks like they did not expect to get so many objections and seem now to be willing to look at things from all sides.
Keep the mails going,

To All Concerned,

It is with total and utter shock and dismay that we as a Dublin based Sea Angling Club have learned of your proposed ban on angling from ALL shorelines in the Dun Laoghaire Rathdown area.

We have fished this area for many years and have never had any problems with swimmers or other beach users and as a matter of fact people seem to take a great interest in what we are doing and often stop to have a chat with us.

We also actively encourage young people both male and female to take up fishing as a sport and a pastime and have on many, many occasions brought them to the likes of Killiney beach to get them started. We have held fun fishing days during the Christmas holidays where all that matters is that the children enjoy themselves and go home happy at the end of the day. To deny this to our young people is a great miscarriage of justice. Fishing from these shorelines is something that our parents and grand parents have done for many years and to be denied an opportunity of passing on our knowledge to our younger generation is totally unbelievable.

It is interesting to note that the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources as well as the Eastern Regional Fisheries Board promote fishing along this area (as well as other areas) in their latest "Ireland's East Coast" fishing guides which are handed out all major maritime events, why then do you propose to oppose this.

We would like it to be known that we oppose this proposed ban totally and intend to object to its introduction, we have many members of voting age at present and as many again, young people who will not forget what you are trying to do.

Damien

Thats an excellent worded letter...blunt, to the point, factual and respectful...well done.

Tom.

Yes, a good letter. How about sending it to the Irish Times as a follow up to their article on Aug 27?

Received a reply from Cllr. Marie Baker. Much the same but also included this information. This is who/where to send submissions.

Senior Executive Officer, Culture, Community Development & Amenities Department, Level 3, County Hall, Marine Road, Dun Laoghaire before noon on Friday 28th September, 2007.

Or by email to beeches@dlrcoco.ie

I tried the email address mentioned in my earlier post (beeches@dlrcoco.ie) before entering that post - seemed to go thru. so I posted the info. I've since received a bounce on that address.

Tried beaches@dlrcoco.ie and no bounce yet.... should have been obvious :oops: :oops:

Donogh said I could reproduce his submission if I thought it would be helpful to others.

RESPONSE TO DRAFT BEACH BYE-LAWS



Sea-angling is one of the most popular participation sports in Ireland. Ireland is a major destination for sea-angling tourists, and many of our beaches are internationally-renowned fishing areas.

There is no demand from other beach/coast-users for any restriction of sea-angling, and there is no requirement whatsoever for any such restriction.

Sea-anglers fish from all parts of the coastline, including beaches, rocky coastlines, and man-made structures. Sea-anglers utilise these areas at all times, in all climates, and at all stages of the tide cycle.

The Irish climate means that the coast/beaches are relatively rarely utilised for swimming. Any ban on sea-angling would lead to the bizarre situation where anglers were banned from waters, where, for the vast majority of the year, summer and winter, there is no human activity in the water whatsoever.

Sea-anglers rarely have any difficulty with any other beach/coast user, since significant human activity in the water will cause fish to move away from such an area. Unlike some other beach users (eg. dog-walkers/jet-ski riders) there is no significant ‘downside’ for other beach/coast users to sea-angling on any part of the coast.

Sea-anglers are the only beach/coast users who tend to be constantly watching the water, and far from being a threat to swimmers, contribute significantly to swimmer-safety by being in a position to spot swimmers in difficulty before other beach/coast users have done so.

Any restriction on sea-angling would appear to be not only unnecessary, but detrimental to the safety of other beach/coast users. Should the Council still feel that some restriction is necessary, a simple requirement that anglers do not fish within 50 metres of sunbathers/swimmers would seem to cover all possible eventualities.

Sea-angling is a long-standing, traditional pastime in working-class areas of Dublin and Dun Laoghaire. The coast of Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown is almost inevitably where young people from disadvantaged areas have their first experience of sea-angling. This should be encouraged, rather than restricted. A ban on sea-angling in the Dublin area would, for young people or people without private transport, effectively totally ban them from engaging in their chosen pastime.











Fixing What Isn’t Broken


There are categories of beach-user who may come into conflict with other beach-users. Typical examples may be jet-ski riders, who can create noise pollution and may present a real hazard to swimmers, or dog-walkers, whose animals may foul the beach and otherwise disturb bathers and sunbathers. Sea-anglers are simply not one of these categories. Neither I, nor my angling colleagues, seem to be aware of even a single serious accident involving shore sea-angling causing harm to any third party. We presume that there must have been some complaint about sea-angling to have provoked this proposal, but we are unaware of any demand whatsoever from other beach-users for sea-angling to be restricted. In short, there is no requirement for this proposal which would constitute a massive attack on the pastime, passion, and personal freedom of sea-anglers. It claims to address a problem which simply doesn’t exist. On the other hand, any attempt to implement such a restriction would create untold problems for anglers, authorities, and other beach users.








Swimmers and Angling Tackle Simply Don’t Meet


The reality of sea-angling is that, in the rare instances where the weather permits any swimmers in the water, when anglers arrive on a beach they immediately move to a place that is free of swimmers, surfers or any other human activity in the water. Generally, human activity in the water disturbs fish and anglers have no interest in fishing in such areas. Only in the rarest cases, where there is a very limited area where fish congregate and which is also particularly suitable for swimming, is there any potential for conflict between swimmers and anglers. There is no such area in the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown area. Sea-anglers also tend to use the beach/coast in dull conditions, cool conditions, rough conditions, dusk, dawn and night-time, all times where there are unlikely to be any people in the water. Nor does sea-angling tackle drift at all. It is held on the seabed with a lead weight, or in the case of spinning, retrieved directly to the angler. (see Background note on Types of Sea Angling) Any attempt to restrict angling by time, or time of the year, would cause anglers to be banned from beaches/coastline where, for the vast majority of the time, there would not be a single person anywhere in the water.




Sea-Anglers Are a Major Contribution Beach to Safety


Most beach-users tend to be concentrate on their own activity, their attention focussed on the immediate area around them. Uniquely, sea-anglers are not, and that represents a major contribution to beach safety. Sea-anglers are constantly watching the sea, and as such, are likely to spot other beach users in trouble before any other type of beach user.

In dull or inclement weather, early in the day or late at night, beaches are primarily used for angling and walking. But beaches can be lonely places for walkers. A couple of anglers dotted along a beach constitute some other human presence and a reassurance for walkers who might feel uncomfortable walking along an utterly deserted beach at such a time.



Sea-Angling is a Major Tourist Activity


Sea-angling in Ireland is a major attraction for foreign anglers, primarily from Britain, but also from further afield. Many of our beaches are internationally-renowned. In addition to the dedicated sea-angling tourist, the prospect of some casual sea-angling is also an immense attraction for general tourists.



Sea-Angling is Environmentally Neutral


Shore sea-angling creates no visual intrusion (in fact, the sight of a sea- angler on a deserted beach might even add to the scene), it creates no noise pollution (sea anglers are rarely the type of beach-user who shout, scream, or play music), and it creates less litter than almost any other beach use (apart from being generally more litter-conscious than most, sea-anglers have the additional concern of the effect that litter has on marine life). Nor do sea anglers use dune areas, or other sensitive areas of beaches/coastline.




Personal Freedom


While sea-anglers might be loathe to make such high-minded arguments, personal freedoms are important, and should only be restricted where clearly necessary in the common good. There is no ‘common good’ argument for restricting sea-angling, and as such, any such restrictions would constitute an entirely unjustified attack on personal freedom.



This is a Political Issue


Anglers are passionate, some might say obsessive, about their sport. It is a major part of our lives. We talk about it constantly, we join clubs, when we are not doing it, we are thinking about doing it or looking forward to doing it. Up to now, there has never been any requirement that we would vote on the basis of angling issues. But there is absolutely no doubt that any attempt to restrict anglers from engaging in the pastime that we love will lead us to vote on the basis of this, most important, angling issue.






Designating Sea-Angling Areas Is Not Possible


Areas where there may be fish, or are known to be fish, are known to sea-anglers as ‘marks’. Some are on rocky coastline (for instance near Whiterock Beach), others are on beaches (eg parts of Killiney Beach, near Blackrock) and still more near harbours etc. (Parts of Dun Laoghaire Harbour).

But fish are unpredictable creatures. They move. A food source may disappear in one place and a new one appear in another. Sandbanks shift constantly. As the fish move, so do the marks. And the sea-anglers. So designating appropriate fishing areas is impossible, even if the massive wealth of sea-angling expertise necessary to do so existed within Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council.




What Would be the Result if this Ban Went Ahead?


If this ban went ahead, many of the most serious sea-anglers with enough time and money would simply desert the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown area, which would not be a benefit to anyone, and would be detrimental, to varying degrees, to tackle shops, outdoor shops, cafes, petrol stations, newsagents etc.

But many anglers would not. Although no-one could condone breaking beach bye-laws, there is no doubt that many anglers would do so, feeling that an overwhelming and unjustified attack on their personal freedoms had taken place. That would lead to a requirement for a significant policing operation by the Council, constant conflict between anglers and the Council, and a general disturbance of the peace of the beaches and the coastline.

There is no need for any such conflict. This ban is unnecessary and detrimental to all beach/coast users.



Are There Regulations that Might Be Acceptable to All Beach/Coast Users?


Since there is no problem, no solution and no regulations are necessary. If, however, the Council still feels that some regulation is necessary, it is important to note that the key objection of anglers to this proposal is the idea of a blanket ban to which the Council might then, if and where it chose, grant exceptions.

If there were particular, very limited, non-beach areas where space was restricted and which were heavily-utilised by swimmers, where the Council felt it was necessary to ban angling, many anglers might find that acceptable. (There seems to be only one such area in the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown area, and that would, of course, be the 40-foot bathing Place.)

If the Council also wanted to place a general onus on anglers to keep away from swimmers/people in the water, that might also be acceptable to many anglers. A simple requirement in the bye-laws that anglers do not fish within 50 metres of any swimmers/sunbathers would seem to be more than adequate to do so.






Conclusion:


There is no demand or requirement for any restriction of sea-angling in the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown area. I, and my angling colleagues, would ask, therefore, that no such restriction be included in the bye-laws.










Background to types of sea-angling on our coastline:

Different types of angling take place on different parts of the coast, depending on the type of coastline involved. None present any significant safety risk to other beach users.



Beaches: Sea anglers on beaches tend to use one of two types of fishing.

Ground-fishing: The angler casts directly out to sea from the beach. The hook and bait lands in the sea and is held in place on the seabed by a lead weight. Apart from the fact that the hook is on the seabed, far from the surface, anglers particularly avoid fishing using this method near swimmers since any human activity near the bait will cause fish to move away from it. The baits also tend to be considerably further out to sea than the typical recreational swimmers.

Spinning: This involves a shorter cast using a lure (artificial bait of some type with incorporated hook) and the angler immediately reeling it back in, in a direct line to himself/herself. (This causes the lure to appear more realistic)





Rocky coastline:

Feathering: Similar to spinning, except the lure is replaced with a set of feather-type lures, each with hook incorporated.

Ground-fishing and spinning are also commonly carried out on rocky parts of the coastline.


Man-made Structures (Harbour/Piers etc):

Float-fishing: The bait and hook are cast out only a short distance (often less than 10 metres). The bait is held down in mid-water by a light weight, and prevented from sinking by a float. This is rarely used in places where there may be swimmers, but the hook is deep in the water and a swimmer would have to be almost on top of an angler to have any chance of coming near it. Ground fishing, spinning, and feathering, also take place from man-made structures.

excellent letter !!

yes, agreed. a lot of thought and effort behind that one.

Great letter, jd, Donagh. One comment.

If the Council also wanted to place a general onus on anglers to keep away from swimmers/people in the water, that might also be acceptable to many anglers. A simple requirement in the bye-laws that anglers do not fish within 50 metres of any swimmers/sunbathers would seem to be more than adequate to do so.

I'd be a bit concerned about this wording and would include something about designated, flagged areas for swimmers/sunbathers. For example, a small number of sunbathers at White Rock, or on non-patrolled areas of the beach could put an onus on anglers to move on/not fish at all.

But, as I said, a great letter.


Steven

Donogh said I could reproduce his submission if I thought it would be helpful to others.

Any restriction on sea-angling would appear to be not only unnecessary, but detrimental to the safety of other beach/coast users. Should the Council still feel that some restriction is necessary, a simple requirement that anglers do not fish within 50 metres of sunbathers/swimmers would seem to cover all possible eventualities.


.........................


Since there is no problem, no solution and no regulations are necessary. If, however, the Council still feels that some regulation is necessary, it is important to note that the key objection of anglers to this proposal is the idea of a blanket ban to which the Council might then, if and where it chose, grant exceptions.

If there were particular, very limited, non-beach areas where space was restricted and which were heavily-utilised by swimmers, where the Council felt it was necessary to ban angling, many anglers might find that acceptable. (There seems to be only one such area in the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown area, and that would, of course, be the 40-foot bathing Place.)

If the Council also wanted to place a general onus on anglers to keep away from swimmers/people in the water, that might also be acceptable to many anglers. A simple requirement in the bye-laws that anglers do not fish within 50 metres of any swimmers/sunbathers would seem to be more than adequate to do so.

..........

Those items are objectionable. They pave the way for restrictions on anglers. Indeed, they make it clear that anglers themselves would agree to restrictions.

This isn't the way to go forward, imo. We should be fighting this on a "no compromise" stance. They're the ones who made these proposals without consulting us. We should defeat them, and then let them come to us for consultations, like how it should have been in the first place.

I reckon we're beating them now. No need at theis stage to make concessions to these people. Give tham an inch, give them a sign of weakness, and they'll exploit us cruelly.


Otherwise, a first class letter. A fine and well reasoned arguement.

(I'm only being an awkard sod because I think we need this debate amongst ourselves to decide on our stragaties.)

Hi Gerry
I did raise these points with Donogh, and we agreed to disagree on this.
jd

To be honest, I can't see a problem with those proposals.

It's made clear first of all that no bye-law is necessary.

If the council feels they must introduce unnessary bye-laws, then Donagh's proposal suggests what might be acceptable. He says the 40-foot is the only area where a restriction might make sense. (Who wants to fish at the 40-foot. Aargh, my eyes, my eyes.)

He also suggests that anglers wouldn't fish within 50m of a swimmer. Such a regulation (or guideline) could never require an "established" angler to move. It would give ordinary members of the public powers over anglers that typically only gardaí and other officials might have. Instead, it would place an onus on an angler not to fish within 50m of someone who's already swimming.

In my view what's proposed is common sense so, as Donagh says, there's really no need to regulate for it anyway.