Some discussion re Minimum sizes and Match scoring.

Donagh,

There is a level playing field, the better angler should always win, but in angling its not always the case, there will always be the luck element in our sport.

In any open there is a chance that Mr Joe Nobody can win outright against the best guys out there....how more level can that be.....in other sports this is not the same, Mr Joe Nobody hasn't a hope in hell of beating the top snooker players, top tennis player or top golfers etc...

IMHO Little fish are being caught because that's all that's out there most of the time....if Doggies are on the go, then most match anglers would much rather rig for them as little Pouting or Cod.

Tom.

Firstly I said some of the lottery element. In my mind smaller fish suit good match anglers. For me I just turn up at comps to learn off other anglers about marks and tactics. If you want to become international anglers over a series on comps the cream should still rise to the top over a series of comps. The most important thing in a small club is not to pick out the master angler but have people turn up. For some catching any sort of fish will do that but for me catching fish under 20cms wouldn't interest me. I've a lake 5 minutes from my home where I could do that instead of a 4 hour round trip to the end of clare taking off a 5 in the morning to get fresh mackerel.

Donagh

Donagh,

I take your point totally, there is not a better sight than a good bend in your rod, we just happen to be unlucky and live in an age of sizable fish not being there like times gone by.

I done most of my fishing off the northeast coast of England (big Cod country) I feel sorry for the boys over here, especially the younger ones who will possible never see that kind of fishing.

There was a time 20 years ago that I couldn't get anymore Cod fillets in my freezer at home, I used to give it away to neighbors, in those days I would release fish because I was to lazy to clean and fillet them, not because of conservation, it was almost never talked of then...s*** happens so they say, perhaps we're paying the price now.

Tom.

Don't really know the answer to this but I can certainly see the problem especially on the east coast. :roll:
How about clubs allowing points for every fish for the comp, just to keep the interest of less experienced anglers :lol: , but these do not apply for master angler points??

Just a thought

Yappo

You get out what you put in.

agreed. any time i have had a poor result it has been from lack of preperation. luck favours the prepared.

biggest fish would still require a bit of work. not as much of a lottery as mentioned(but has definate potential to be!). the pursuing anglers would still need knowledge, skill and bait! even on the local river comps the same lads used to catch the biggest trout year in( and often the most aswell).
however cud not see matches goin this way- conservation reasons but also as heaviest fish comps could possible be bad practice for entering world events? they would probably be more fun though! a lot of anglers fish big when pleasure fishing, practice enough perhaps?

handicapping anglers is a bit severe, alternative to this difficult to think of. an individual can only win so many a year... but in fairness i cant begrudge an angler that does well in every comp they fish- sure wouldn't we all like to do that!!

keeping interest in match angling? now there's a question. :?

I think the way the system is now is fine. If we dropped it to 17cm I guarantee you'd suddenly start picking up rakes of 16cm fish :lol: !
I used to be quite active and quite successful in junior match angling but packed it in because I got a bit bored fishing my nuts off for see through fish on the East Coast when I could go catch clunkers in Courtmac for a fraction of the cost and heartache.
Leav the system as is and acknowledge that match fishing (primarily on the East Coast) can be heartbreaking and that because they have to target fish they wouldn't dream of catching in pleasure angling many anglers won't bother.
Heres hoping to some ray next week!

[Donagh]

I never proposed handicapping I said equivalent to. I'm just putting out a different train of thought to say things aren't always as black and white. Its not just on the east coast that these discussions happen. Performance could be down to bait, prepartion, distance casting or just knowing the area. Giving the outsider a chance will encourage attendance. Not all of us have the time you guys have to get the bait the day before or put the time into casting. Rules can be taken to far. I heard of club agm where only having 100 meters of line on the reel was proposed but the rule was struck down.

I don't agree with the heaviest fish rovers where the fish has to be killed or is left out of water so long that may as well be. Rovers can be held when small sums of money are up for grabs on a trust basis.

I'm lucking enough to get fish during most of my summer sessions that can bend a rod. Maybe this has spoiled me that I wouldn't count a fish under 20cms as being worthwhile. I wouldn't be to pushed about the ones under 30cms.

Donagh

Last edited by Donagh on Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Theres nothing like getting trounced in a few comps to make you focus and learn.....I speak from a personal level on that!

Well said, a sure fire way of coming up the learning curve alright. I blanked in my first open compo and wasn't half as prepared or tactically aware as other lads on the beach who caught lots of fish that day.

Personally I have my own marks that I fish and know the tide & weather conditions that'll produce fish but the challenge of fishing a venue during a set time against other anglers on a fairly level playing field is great, 20cm is a small fish, and I reckon it should stay at that, any more and they're would be alot (More) dead fish washing back up on the beach during and after matches.

There seems to be a lot of begrudgery with the same guys winning most of the open comps. Talk of handicapping is pure nonsence, this is like asking Steven Gerrard to play with one leg, cope on lads. If you want to get on in this sport you have to compete against the best and the best is the angler that catches the most fish. To say that it takes more skill to catch a big fish is also wide of the mark. It is far more difficult to catch the smaller fish, thats why novices struggle in comps. I have to agree with Paul Mason, heres a guy that been around and knows what hes talking about. I think a limit of 15cms sounds about right, however as the size limit is reduced anglers will always talk about the fish that just fail to make the size limit, thats just human nature.

Firstly please read what I said.

What I said was small fish suit better match anglers.

No one proposed handicapping. I mentioned handicapping In relation to GOLF to give the difference between amatuers and pros. Yes some comps should suit the top guys but whats the problem with having some comps where the ordinary guy has more of a chance.

I said my comments were in relation to small club comps. I've no objection to guys measuring postage stamp fish but there seems to be s feeling that because the big comps do it so should we. As I said I'm mainly a pleasure angler but if you don't attract the likes of me where does the big winnings pot come from.

Donagh

the size limits were already reduced from 300 down to 200, if its then reduced to 150 what happens next, 100mm when will it stop. leave the (east coast) sizes at 200 as they stand and if you catch only undersize fish thats just hard luck, maybe next time you'll do better.

Paul agreed i believe in opens and regional comps sizes should not change. But in small local clubs,when bringing new people in to the sport and for them to catch the bug we all obiouvsly have, you have to make allowences and make it enjoyable for all members.

There seems to be a lot of begrudgery with the same guys winning most of the open comps. Talk of handicapping is pure nonsence, this is like asking Steven Gerrard to play with one leg, cope on lads. If you want to get on in this sport you have to compete against the best and the best is the angler that catches the most fish. To say that it takes more skill to catch a big fish is also wide of the mark. It is far more difficult to catch the smaller fish, thats why novices struggle in comps. I have to agree with Paul Mason, heres a guy that been around and knows what hes talking about. I think a limit of 15cms sounds about right, however as the size limit is reduced anglers will always talk about the fish that just fail to make the size limit, thats just human nature.

no one was begrudging any anglers.

Donagh seems to be getting a hard time over this, he is right...some are picking up what he said totally wrong.

There is a point (pun not intended) being missed here...if 20cm is left in as the size limit..then fine by me....but even fish below that size should score at least "one point" then an angler who had caught 20 under size fish would still have 20 points on his card...that way not many would take a blank card back to the table.

Tom.

I can see the sense in removing the 20cm size limit. We're fishing catch and release. Lots of people are using size 4 or 6 hooks and catching small fish anyway. The fish may as well be measured.

Would placing a lower limit on the hook size make sense? The limit could be based on gape, using a template, rather than stated hook size, which varies. That might protect the ridiculous goldfish sized things. Any fish that are caught with a legal size hook could then be measured. Just a thought ...

Look lads, I joined a local club a few years ago, along with three others. I was determined to try my best to improve and maybe win a prize in club comps. One of the other lads was just a moaner, at a meeting one night he started all this bull about not being able to win a prize and he had all sorts of excuses, he finally put this motion forward of having some sort of a handicapp system in the club & why ? because he could'nt see what the top few in the club were doing to catch. and he didnt prepare. All he wanted was a little bit of glory, even if he was to fish in a little category of his own. Everyone must start at the begining, even the Paul Masons & Stephen Brennans struggled in the begining (i presume). The best way to improve is to get on with it. To keep anglers in clubs and at open comps and indeed major comps is to have them registering fish and if this is 15cms or 18cms so be it.

look at the Penn points league..if like me you have years of mags in the cupboard check them out . there's consistently a few anglers in the top ten.

check out Ian golds or Steven Brennan's results for instance. I know some will say they only pick certain comps but there results still stand they out fish all other anglers regularly. In ulster IFSA comps anything over 20cm counts. That's a small fish, actually way less than my laptop screen (measure 20cm and get a real Idea for it). I believe that it is the minimum that can be allowed. Good anglers out fish mediocre anglers everyday.

Do you want an American system where everybody gets a medal for participating of a Greek one where the winner gets gold.
Maybe we should try harder.

p.s. If was easy it wouldn't be worth doing.

in my clubs winter league and easter league we count every thing for example say you get a whiting under 20cm you would get 1 pt and say a codling between 20 and 25cm then you get 2pts....the points go up every 5cm so say a cod between 40 and 45cm will be awarded 6pts....doggies are a set point at 6pts....it easy enough when you get use to the system

(I havn't used this before and my comments were posted there before I finished!!!)
With all the small fish on the beach, it's hard to govern what's what.
Then if we have a good match, many anglers wouldn't be able to keep up all the fish, so that would leave yous were you started again.
Some of the opens this year were hampered by the conditions and the venue conditions on the day and this should not reflect on the fishing itself, there are a lot of fish around, maybe not quality fish, but if you are targeting with the right baits and tactics, they are there.
Brief summary: reduced limits are not all they are made out to be, in many cases, it will do nothing for the average angler until they catch on to match techniques and baits, etc: and I think that in many cases it will do more damage. . . Maybe start looking at restricting baits instead to give everyone an equal palying fiald from the start and start looking at the "unfair anglers" out there that bend rules.

I made a mess of my post there, I sent the second part first. . . I wanted to say first that when running competitions and opens, it wouldn't matter what you did, people will always be unhapppy, we can never find a common ground, something always doesn't suit somebody. .
If limits are reduced, it would suit the match anglers anyway because you can be sure that what ever they score in a match, they have more than likely put back twice,3,4 times that amount of fish as undersize, so reduced limits still wont benefit the average angler. It would probably impede them, as when a match is fishing well, they would struggle to keep up with the fishing (speed fishing), don't forget that fish have to be signed for and so on, a lot of running about.
A lot of anglers can't compete fom start as they don't have, can't get or don't have the time to get the baits, with most of the comps on the Wexford beaches, if you don't have maddies and wriggler whites, you can't compete, THAT'S FACT! So maybe look at baits as a "handicap,"...if you go to the world championships, you get your baits haned to you and that's it, you do what you can with what you have..ie: RESTRICT BAITS.
I say this as an angler that has no bother with bait and an angler that will go to the end of the earth for my bait!
Somebody has to do the cards! Everybody complains about the wait for results, imagine what it would be like if everything counted or sizes were reduced. IT"S NOT ALL BLACK AND WHITE. . .Thers lots to think of!
Reducing limits would make competitions harder to govern and run, we try to make a fair competition for everyone. Each angler is a steward at an open and if all fish counted or limits came down AGAIN, there would be a lot of tiny fish on the beach and what is to stop fish from being counted TWICE, there is a lot of skull duggery at the moment, what would it be like then???Not every angler is honest!