Bass being commercially exploited again!?

This is the original email from the Dept:

The Minister of State (MOS) has received representations from Mr Tony Killeen TD, Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries & Food regarding a proposal by The Federation of Irish Fishermen (FIF) to allow Irish commercial fishing vessels to target sea Bass and land it when caught in offshore waters. FIF proposal is that they propose that Irish regulations be changed to permit Irish commercial fishing vessels to retain and land sea Bass caught south of (51.30’N) in area VII. This area is approx 50 km off the SE coast of Ireland and the UK advice for 2007 states that this stock is in a healthy state. FIF in making this proposal is taking a precautionary approach to avoid any fishing whatsoever of the Irish inshore stock. If the sea Bass fishery is opened in the area south of the 51.30’N, FIF is fully committed to engaging with the Marine Institute through the Industry/Science partnership to work at carrying out a full assessment on the stock North of this position in area VII.

Surprised nobody has homed in on this part yet:

If the sea Bass fishery is opened in the area south of the 51.30’N, FIF is fully committed to engaging with the Marine Institute through the Industry/Science partnership to work at carrying out a full assessment on the stock North of this position in area VII.

Looks like you really are going to have a scrap on your hands.

Looks like you really are going to have a scrap on your hands.

.........david and goliath stuff man,from what im told its almost a foregone conclusion as the general concensus among commercial fishermen and most politicians is that theyre owed one(at least) after years of neglect by the eu and our bunch of corrupt politicians.without documented proof of the bass fisheries worth from an angling/tourism standpoint we dont even have an argument,were just a bunch of guys all giving out.these guys have the march on us by miles,are very organised,have the sympathy of the politicians/general public and will have facts and figures(however inaccurate)laid out in simple terms for our simple politicians to understand.they will also be watching this thread and others like it to see how we plan on countering their arguments.in my opinion this discussion needs to be taken offline and to live public meetings nationally culminating in one large meeting in dublin or cork or both.we need to have a simple document drawn up outlining the benefits of keeping the ban and the potential future benefits(sort of a ten point plan on developing the recreational sea bass fishery),this is all these bozos in government understand.without this we are wasting our time.

AHAB, I think you are spot on. Unfortunately.

Do you have any time in your hands to get involved in organizing such a meeting?

Please let me remind you all, that there was already in this thread a proposal of organizing meeting with politician but none of you guys involved in "angling business" (guides, skippers, marine scientists to name just a few) committed to attend such a meeting.

I’m happy with taking discussion out of the public (due to geographic separation taking it off-line is not really doable) and actually come up with the plan, and execute it. We got that potential.

Unless there is already something going *not in public* then please somebody send me a PM

by taking it offline i mean we could all hold informal meetings locally between ourselves(buddies,angling clubs etc)over the next week,try narrow things down to 10 points,report back to an agreed spokesman then quickly organise larger national/semi national meetings and finalize our proposal/document......it would need somebody far more experienced and connected than i to head this up,but i would do any mount of donkeywork,data collection etc.required...............wheres ashley when you need him or would it be a conflict of interests of sorts????????

.........david and goliath stuff man,from what im told its almost a foregone conclusion as the general concensus among commercial fishermen and most politicians is that theyre owed one(at least) after years of neglect by the eu and our bunch of corrupt politicians...

Hi good captain

I would say, possibly. However, the stance from FIF, could also relate to political posturing, in relation to the currently stalled talks between Ireland and Norway over Mackerel fisheries. If the FIF flex their muscles over Bass then the Irish Government sit up and listen to them on the wider issue, type thing.

Keep your guard up, at all times, boys. It's been good discussing this with you all

Hopefully my humble contributions have been of some use.

.........david and goliath stuff man,from what im told its almost a foregone conclusion as the general concensus among commercial fishermen and most politicians is that theyre owed one(at least) after years of neglect by the eu and our bunch of corrupt politicians...

Hi good captain

I would say, possibly. However, the stance from FIF, could also relate to political posturing, in relation to the currently stalled talks between Ireland and Norway over Mackerel fisheries. If the FIF flex their muscles over Bass then the Irish Government sit up and listen to them on the wider issue, type thing.

Keep your guard up, at all times, boys. It's been good discussing this with you all

Hopefully my humble contributions have been of some use.

excellent well thought out contributions man and much appreciated,keep them coming please

Ashley has been watching this thread, initially with interest, then with frustration as it started going around in circles and getting personal.

I did make a contribution, and for the third time I repeat, send a submission to your local TD and to Minister Conor Lenihen at the Dept of the Marine.

It can be as simple as stating how much of your leisure time and in particular your income is spent on Bass fishing in this country, or a more detailed socio-economic brief, but it has to be current and relevant.

Get your tackle shop, club, IFSA representative, EFSA representative, friend, B/B, Hotel, infact any stakeholder that you know, and press them to file a submission. Politicians as we know work on votes, money, and what is perceived as the National Interest. Let the sea angling world for the first time show that it has a place and a vote in deciding what is "In The National Interest".

Then by all means start an organisation that demands better environmental protection and inshore waters development, not only for Bass, but for all the species and coastal environments that have been hammered over the last 60 years.

American experience is the modal, the Montana trout streams 100 years ago, and the east coast Striped Bass fishery 30years ago were shot. Recreational angling was a dirty word, today it is a shining light, down to people power, belief, and vision.

Regards....

hi ashley,writing letters to td`s etc is a starting point alright but how many letters to any particular td do you think it would take to sway them....100,1000,5000..????.theres not a politician in the country that would bother with as little as 100 letters,let alone 1000 or so and as for how much an angler spends p/a on bass fishing ,well without detailed receipts etc.then its just make believe.the only data ordinary folk like i could possibly organise,with great difficulty, might be from the likes of tackle shops(which number quite a small amount countrywide)or b&bs(which would be very innaccurate).............it was my hope getting involved in this discussion that the likes of jimh or padge(as very experienced guides)or maybe the likes of you with facts,figures,reports,studies all to hand and inside connections might want to grab the ball and run with it.....but hey

hi ashley,writing letters to td`s etc is a starting point alright but how many letters to any particular td do you think it would take to sway them....100,1000,5000..????.theres not a politician in the country that would bother with as little as 100 letters,let alone 1000

Exactly Capt' then break down the lets say for example 1000 letters sent to all the different parties and politicians put them in their post bags with all the other letters they receive daily for all their other constituency issues and they won't even notice your beloved bass over some pothole out side the local school gate

My heads getting sore so I've just posted an FOI request.

Good afternoon teacher, I admire your style

Would it be prudent to ask exactly what your FOI submission was?

Also, since I've never made a FOI request, do they have a stated turnaround time?

Would it be prudent to ask exactly what your FOI submission was?
Also, since I've never made a FOI request, do they have a stated turnaround time?

I asked them for (1) a copy of representation made by the Federation of Irish Fishermen to the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food from 1st January 2008 to present day relating to D. Labrax and (2) a copy of any correspondence between the same Department and the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources over the same period, also relating to D. Labrax. I've never made a request before but as far as I know you just state (clearly) what you're looking for, send them 15 quid and wait up to 4 weeks (they have to respond in that time, I think).

I know some people here probably already have the FIF's 2-page proposal but can't post it publicly yet. Hopefully if we get it through FOI we can post it.

I can say that from what I've heard, the discrepancy between 51.3 degrees and 51 degrees 30 minutes also exists in the FIF's proposal. It's not just a discrepancy introduced between govt departments.

I'm not sure it really matters. If the authorities already have difficulty proving that a bass came from Ireland and not Greece, then how on earth are they going to prove whether it came from above or below some imaginary line at 51.whatever North.

Hi teach,

Two very well thought out requests and interesting to learn that there is a two page proposal, beyond the two sentence press release, floating about the ether. Is the 2 page proposal, currently classified information? If I had a copy, I'd happily leak it

From what I can see the relevance is in relation to 6 & 12 mile limits.

Oh sod it. Give me a few minutes and I'll put the proposal up on the Irish Bass website. This is too important.

Oh sod it. Give me a few minutes and I'll put the proposal up on the Irish Bass website. This is too important.

Excellent!!!!!

Now we have something concrete to work with...

Tiggs........ down boy, down!

OK, I had to type the whole feckin thing out because I didn't have a suitable electronic copy!

Scroll down a bit to see the proposal.

http://www.irishbass.org/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=66

OK, I had to type the whole feckin thing out because I didn't have a suitable electronic copy!

Scroll down a bit to see the proposal.

http://www.irishbass.org/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=66

This is your main problem...

Sea Bass is currently legally exploited most notably by French and UK fishing vessels up to the 6 mile limits off the Irish coast. Irish fishing vessels are currently totally precluded from this fishery due to solely Irish regulations.

Now if all the FIF are asking for is parity or a level playing field within areas outside 6 nm then the request would appear entirely reasonable?

I had a quick look at your templates. It has been stated that Bass fisheries have recovered since the ban on Irish vessels, alone was imposed in 1990, presumably this improvement has occurred, despite the exploitation of French and UK vessels outside the 6 mile limit?

OK, I had to type the whole feckin thing out because I didn't have a suitable electronic copy!

Scroll down a bit to see the proposal.

http://www.irishbass.org/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=66

This is your main problem...

Sea Bass is currently legally exploited most notably by French and UK fishing vessels up to the 6 mile limits off the Irish coast. Irish fishing vessels are currently totally precluded from this fishery due to solely Irish regulations.

Now if all the FIF are asking for is parity or a level playing field within areas outside 6 nm then the request would appear entirely reasonable?

exactly man and this is the problem,we have to be able to present an absolutely rock solid case as to why they shouldnt have equal rights within their own industry....an almost impossible task even if we had a properly set up group dedicated to the cause and judging by the way this discussion has gone round and round and the absence of real input/ideas from our more influencial and experienced members that seems a very long way off.....its very sad but things look really bleak.

Im happy to see this thread survived the 'sand' storm its been of huge benefit - we need people like this and like Bradan - normally this type of subject degenerates into crap very quickly -

I cant help but hear the regular question ...'Where are guides in all of this?'
Guides wont save bass - weight in numbers will

From a personal view point the data from 2003 through 2009, capturing on an annual basis seven years of genuine guiding information accuratley - Including nationalities, numbers of visitors, number of days, revenue spent, local impacts, ancilliary service impact, fish numbers, fish sizes, times, tides, workshops, and projected growth levels is available. It has always been available at the close of each season. In fact there's a summary of the data posted for the last five years on my website in the Year in review 2009.

Some of this data forms the basis of my submission - its simply not for discussion on this forum. Strangely too - this data has never been requested by anyone nor any organisation.....some of it has been recently volunteered. Like I said back on page one.....

Im happy to see this thread survived the 'sand' storm its been of huge benefit - we need people like this and like Bradan - normally this type of subject degenerates into crap very quickly -

I cant help but hear the regular question ...'Where are guides in all of this?'
Guides wont save Bass - weight in numbers will

From a personal view point the data from 2003 through 2009, capturing on an annual basis seven years of genuine guiding information accuratley - Including nationalities, numbers of visitors, number of days, revenue spent, local impacts, ancilliary service impact, fish numbers, fish sizes, times, tides, workshops, and projected growth levels is available. It has always been available at the close of each season. In fact there's a summary of the data posted for the last five years on my website in the Year in review 2009.

Some of this data forms the basis of my submission - its simply not for discussion on this forum. Strangely too - this data has never been requested by anyone nor any organisation.....some of it has been recently volunteered. Like I said back on page one.....

......very good jim,i understand why you wouldnt want to post your data for all to see here.unfortunetly your data or your expert opinion on its own wont stop the innevitable.i think we need your data along with that of b&bs,tackle shops,bait collecters,angling clubs,cfb etc put together in one simply laid out document to present to the relevant minister.....unless ofcourse you have better ideas that you might share with us(im presuming you arent intending to be a lone ranger with this)?

A - I dont have an expert opinion!

In the absence of anything coming from SAI - Here is one idea in relation to data from this site

In shore angling reports there is a template as far as I’m aware
Those templates have headings including time and species number of anglers etc
Extract the data from the entire database which references ‘BASS’
Isolate each unique session from the data –

On average an angler spends four hours fishing and most will incorporate at least four of the following

1. Travel costs – fuel
2. Bait costs –
3. Gear costs
4. Food costs
5. Possible accommodation costs

Calculate the average that an angler spends on the above items and then extrapolate the costs over the data extracted from the database above for all incidences and number of anglers incurred

SAI represents a small portion of the anglers in Ireland and angling reports an even smaller proportion but it’s a start and its real data from a genuine real source over considerable time and instances.

It might mean something who knows – what concerns me is the amount of activity on this site based around catching bass, talking about them, when and how, and gear and all that, even arguing about them, but when it comes to down to it……..