Tue May 08, 2007 1:03 pm

Me too....Great White and a Porgie look very alike, especially from a boat or rocks while looking down on the surface of the water.

Tom.

Tue May 08, 2007 1:24 pm

Porbeagle was my first thought too. It is a long long way from SA/Florida to Kerry to be swimming it!

Tue May 08, 2007 3:15 pm

not having seen it yourself its always hard to say, but i have to go along with bradan etc and guess porgie.

Tue May 08, 2007 6:54 pm

The great white will only breach when it has swam up from depth under a prey item, So i don't think it would have been a White.
It was more likely to have been a Porbeagle, do you have any more details... long body or squat body, pointed high dorsal fin, rounded short dorsal fin, rounded high dorsal fin, upper body colour grey, blue etc??

Tue May 08, 2007 7:18 pm

going to Kerry in July, i guess i am taking my 80lb+ boat rod and reel when i go rock fishing

Tue May 08, 2007 8:42 pm

I worked for a while in Gansbaii, South Africa helping with research on White Sharks. Nothing more spectacular than seeing one of them breach. But as much as I would love to think it was a white shark i'd have to agree with those saying porbeagle. There is a good bit of info on them here; http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/Species ... .php?id=88. Apparently they used to be taken regularly enough from the shore so it wouldn't be too strange for it to be that close in. There's a good story about a guy called Jack Shine who used to target the from the shore on the specimen website.
http://www.irish-trophy-fish.com/articles/kevinl.htm

They're really endangered and rare these days so its nice to hear of one being seen. I'll definitely be taking the boat to Kerry this summer!

Tue May 08, 2007 9:22 pm

I still prefer the idea of great whites

* mental note: get theme to jaws for mp3 player *

bam bam

Tue May 08, 2007 10:44 pm

I live in Brixham, Devon and during the spratting season threshers and porbeagles are frequently landed on the quay by the local boats (at least a couple a month, maybe worth trying for!!). This was 100% certain not a thresher and 99.9% not a porbeagle, there was no white mark on the dorsal fin at all. I have seen about half a dozen basking sharks before and although this was not recently I do not remember them looking like this one.
It is possible I foul hooked it, either it went for a redgill (no chance), I foul hooked it or it took a pollack that had taken the redgill. Although we only had pollack to 6lb, they have been taken to over 12lb from this mark so it is possible there was a bit more than a snack.
We did not see the belly, it was almost directly underneath us at the first sighting and then when it jumped it was twisting with its back towards us. The colour of its back and dorsal fin was very dark grey. The shape of the dorsal was straight on the front edge and very slightly concave on the back edge.
I have put this post here aswell. [url]http://www.worldseafishing.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67044[url]

The youtube clip by rockhopper is exactly the same as the way it jumped, except the one we saw didn`t go as high.

Wed May 09, 2007 12:23 am

I personally have learned where fish are concerned never to say never, so many times you hear about a fish being seen or caught even and hear someone say "but they never come here" I knew a skipper called Ted Legg who 20 years ago took a guy called John Gill (edit) out from the coast of Portugal and caught the first Blue Marlin in those waters...John said he had seen them jump many times, but other anglers said he was wrong. I for one would like to believe Great Whites are coming over here, who knows if they are as smart as some people think, then they may feel safer than in their normal habitat, they do seem to be the hunted more than the hunters.

Tom.
Last edited by Rockhopper on Wed May 09, 2007 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wed May 09, 2007 9:29 am

i'd be inclined to agree with rock hopper, maybe just maybe it was a great white. when you look at the increasing number of warm water species being caught along the irish and UK coasts in recent years, caused by climate change and all that craic, then maybe just maybe a great white might show up here sooner or later. i'm not saying it was definitely a great white, but when you stand back and think about it, then you can't definitively rule out a great white.


Patrick

Wed May 09, 2007 9:32 am

by the way, sorry for using the term climate change. personally i don't like to use the term, it's over simplistic, but you can get where i'm coming from i hope?!

Um.....what species?

Wed May 09, 2007 1:43 pm

It’s intriguing to read all of the comments on this thread and that other that Eel Hunter started on the WorldSeaFishing forum - http://www.worldseafishing.com/forums/s ... hp?t=67044.

Obviously there are numerous sightings of Basking Sharks off that coastline and the latest I could find, albeit down a bit, was off Sanycove in West Cork on 28th April. But to me the fascinating comment, and Eel Hunter and his son had a long sighting of that shark, was the shape of its dorsal.

The shape of the dorsal was straight on the front edge and very slightly concave on the back edge.

Now have a look at the pictures on the http://www.baskingsharks.org/ web site. Um….all the shots of dorsal fins have that very distinctive curved leading edge. So what was it? Was it a large predatory shark? And if so what?

We’ve tried by a process of elimination on that WorldSeaFishing thread to eliminate species.

A Porbeagle has a very distinctive white spot by the trailing edge of its dorsal, and it didn’t have that. Also, as some of you have pointed out here, it would have been an enormous Porbeagle. Normally they just pack on pounds around their girth. And the ‘longest’ I can recall was one caught by an angler off Rock on the North Cornish coast in 1976. That at 465lbs – it held the World record for a number of years – was, from memory, a bit over 11’ long.

Colour-wise? Eel Hunter describes its back as being very dark grey. Colour’s probably the most difficult thing to make a judgement on. And, based on location, colours of the two species vary. However Great Whites are ‘normally’, on those ventral surfaces, greyish brown not unlike a Porbeagle, whereas Makos tend to be a brilliant blue/grey or even, usually in tropical waters, cobalt blue.

Teeth? Given where they were standing they really wouldn’t have got a good view of its teeth even though both species – the vast majority of sharks in fact - swim with their mouths slightly open. Although a Mako has very distinction ragged dog like teeth clearly visible those of a Great White, particularly those on the upper jaw, are large and triangular in shape.

Jumping? That’s more curious. Makos are the 'high jumpers' of the fish world. I've seen them, when hooked, clear the water by 20' - an impressive sight! They look just like somersaulting torpedoes. And, as far as I’m aware, But Great Whites have only been sighted jumping when they’re predating - based on location - on Seals or Sea Lions. But although Seals are present on that coast there’s no mention in a very detailed report, even though it was only 150 yards out, of a Seal or blood staining on the surface. Normally a Great White would attack and mortally wound before returning cautiously to feast on the remains.

So why did it jump? Was it as was implied the presence of the broken line? Or could it have been a case of misidentification – given the viewing angle the shape of the dorsal – and it was in fact a juvenile Basking Shark broaching.

I guess we’ve come full circle and I have to say, in this specific case, I really don’t know.

But Eel Hunter saw the fish and hopefully, faced with all our observations and speculation, is probably best able to identify what he saw. He’s seen enough Porbeagle and Basking Sharks to eliminate them. But was it a Mako or Great White? Wasn’t that the original question?

Enough of my witterings on that specific though. If I could just throw another couple of observations into the ‘melting pot’.

Great Whites in our waters?

I know it’s by now third hand but friends of mine that sportfished for Albacore of that coast were told by their skipper of two small ‘Great Whites’ caught in nets from the South West. They were in the 500lb range. But were they Great Whites?

Then - and this is going back a long, long way – once on what turned into a very uneventful day in the early 70s targeting Makos off Falmouth (Cornwall), by the famous Manacles Reef, we asked the skipper – Robin Vinnicombe – what was the largest shark he’d seen. Robin described, with a group of holiday makers on board, hooking a shark longer than his dingy – 14’ – with an eye ‘like a compass binnacle’. It came easily to the side, but Robin was concerned it hadn’t fought. So being alone, just with the holiday makers, he elected to poke it in the eye with the back of the flying gaff. It powered off and three hours later, not having once seen it again, it bite through the heavy trace.

I pressed Robin - who in the past had caught numbers of Porbeagles and some Makos – as to what it was. All he’d do was to shrug his shoulders. He didn’t know and wasn’t prepared to speculate. So what was that?

In addition there’ve been other unsubstantiated, but to my mind credible, reports.

Two, in recent years, came from North Cornwall. And, in one of those incidents, an experienced angling journalist I know described seeing what he is convinced was a Great White. In the second incident it was a commercial skipper who described seeing an apparent attack on a Seal and the aftermath, the carcass floating on the surface. He elected not to hang around.

The other I recall came from a marine biologist who was kayaking with his family off the Summer Isles off the West coast of Scotland. Although he only saw a fin, for a protracted length of time, he appeared to be in no doubt as to what he thought was a Great White. Then he reported in that documentary to finding the mutilated carcass of a Seal on the beach the next day. Why it wasn’t taken for forensic analysis though at that point wasn’t made clear.

If they are Great Whites where do they come from? I know MAC speculated that it could be South Africa. But there’re closer populations than that. How about, and the link would be the North Atlantic Drift, the North East USA. They’re regularly sighted off places like Cape Cod in Massachusetts and off Montauk, Long Island (New York). And of course remember ‘Jaws’? The skipper Quint in that was supposedly modelled on a legendary Montauk skipper Frank Mundus who’d caught Great Whites up to 4500lbs, 17.5 feet.

Then there’s a population in the Mediterranean. Those are occasionally encountered in the Adriatic off Croatia and Italy.

But how close have they actually been encountered to our waters? There certainly was a substantiated report of one from La Rochelle on the French Atlantic coast. They have also been harpooned off the Azores where they were presumably shadowing the migrations of whales. And, within the last two weeks, one of the skippers I’ve fished with has spotted several, up to an estimated 800 kilos (1760bs) off the Cape Verde Islands. So, not a ‘million miles’ to swim!
Dave

Oh blimey! There had to be a PS. Rockhopper mentioned the capture of that first Blue Marlin off the Algarve in August 1992. Ted Legg was skippering ‘Aquasition C’, but the angler was actually John Gill. Remembering that you’re not by any chance Mr Ivory’s mate are you?
[url][/url]

Wed May 09, 2007 3:30 pm

Very interesting piece Jack.

I have just edited to John Gill.....I keep forgetting I have Alzheimer's :lol: Ted sent me the photos of John and himself with that Marlin, they should be around somewhere, sadly it was before the internet and I would have to search an old shoe box instead of a file :)

If you mean Sean Ivory.....yes

Tom.

Wed May 09, 2007 3:56 pm

Rockhopper wrote:Very interesting piece Jack.

I have just edited to John Gill.....I keep forgetting I have Alzheimer's :lol: Ted sent me the photos of John and himself with that Marlin, they should be around somewhere, sadly it was before the internet and I would have to search an old shoe box instead of a file :)

If you mean Sean Ivory.....yes

Tom.


Um....nop. The 'Ivory' I was refering to Tom was Alan Ivory from Sutton on the outskirts of Dublin.

On and off, over the years, I've fished with Ted. Right back to the days when he was a 'snooty nosed 16 year old'. Ted's turned 50 now! And he spends his time commercial fishing which is a great shame. One of the finest charter skippers I've ever had the priveledge to fish with.

I recall one particular trip when Alan (Ivory) and I were fishing with Ted in the Azores. It had been a slow week - we'd released one and lost another Marlin. But then Ted in a dreadfully slow boat, Cecilia (8 knots top wack) ran out the 46 miles, overnight, to a complex of offshore banks. We ended up releasing three Blue Marlin that day out of 10 strikes. And one of the fish we lost was easily a 'grander'! We also had two big Bluefin Tuna up around the lures. What a magical day!

So having put it on the map, three weeks after that, Ted was on the deck of Double Header when they landed a Blue of 1146lbs on 50 test. It's still the current line class World record.
Dave

great white or mako

Wed May 09, 2007 4:37 pm

Hi

As I understand it water temperature wise, Makos like it hot akin to topical, around 16 degrees as a minimum? and whilst it reached 19 degrees in Donegal Bay in December three years ago :shock: current buoy readings in the SW are indicating around 13 / 15 degrees.

That said, if makos are going to show up it would be around the Irish box.

By contrast Whites have the capacity to regulate their body temperature internally, one of the few sharks that can and as such they are capable of surviving in very cold waters... in fact one of the best places to see them outside SA is the Farallon (spelling?) Islands on the US West Coast, and that is damn cold water any time of year, it comes down from Alaska.

So, if we are speculating and we've decided its not a porgie and not a basking, then I would - on the basis of water temperature - and with the salt cellar chucked over me shoulder... go for the white over the mako.

Climate change will make no difference to sightings of great whites, only the mako...

FWIW

Wed May 09, 2007 5:03 pm

wow..amaseing post

Wed May 09, 2007 10:00 pm

This is the picture he drew of the fin before I showed him any of the photo`s here and on http://www.newenglandsharks.com/index.html and anywhere else I could find. He says the fin should be slightly wider at the bottom, not too good at drawing.
The back edge of the fin looked as though it had been `nibbled` in a few places.
We have looked through as many photo`s as we can find and it is not like any basking shark we can see anywhere, different shaped dorsal, didn`t see the elongated gill covers and every one of them I have seen before had its mouth wide open which this didn`t . Definately looks like the whites though!! The closest photo we have found is on http://www.newenglandsharks.com/N.ENG.%20whites.htm and is the photo titled `John Chisholm took the photo below, up close and personal of a white sharks dorsal`
Kevin at http://www.kbfishingireland.com/ did say that they occasionally find seal heads and seals with lumps missing out of their bodies on the local beaches. He is away this week, I will email him and try to get him to add his thoughts to all this when he gets back. I remember him saying when we were in Waterville last week that the water temp was 12 degrees C.
I was surprised in the first place when he said white, it does seem more likely though as the others are being discounted and the photos of the whites are very similar. The mako just doesn`t quite look right, especially the fin and is not the right colour
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Thu May 10, 2007 11:01 am

This thread really is absolutely fascinating. If though I could just further comment on a couple of the points.

Colour in my view is perhaps a poor indicator of species, they tend to 'dull' in less temperate waters. (Although 'emotions' - the presence of prey is one - can intensify colour.) And I wouldn't necessarily think water temperature was a relevant factor. (Large) Makos like Great Whites are members of the broader Lamnidae genus and are capable, just like Tunas of regulating body temperatures - a crude form of 'warm blooded-ess'. (And I am aware a Shortfin Mako tagged about five years ago in the 'States was found to have swum through waters, over the course of 60 days, down to 10.4C, although much of that would have been deep, below the thermocline.)

One of the biggest factors in predator location though is going to be the presence of prey. And it’s most likely that Makos, normally encountered offshore, target Tuna species in the North East Atlantic. I suspect it’s way too early in the year for Tunas to be ranging that far north.

So what do we have? The presence of populations of Seals. And, having visited that coast, it is very lightly populated. If I think back to another place I’ve been – Cape Cod, especially the area around the ‘elbow’, Chatham and Monomoy Island – they encounter Great Whites there predating on Seals. But, over the course of last year, with loads of tourists around, there were just reported sightings of, I think, four. Great Whites are a very rare shark.

So to conclude. If it wasn't a Basking Shark, and Eel Hunter is absolutely certain it wasn't, then I err towards it being a Great White. It will be interesting though to see what Kevin can subsequently add to the debate.

Fri May 11, 2007 8:50 pm

Guys this is an amazing tread and there seems to be an awful lot of knowledge on this site.
well here is my Penny's worth. Approximately 25 yrs ago i was fishing in Donegal bay at the Killybegs international fishing comp after lines up we were steaming in. When we were going past Fintra strand we were watching a small pod of dolphins on our port side, when all of a sudden there was a huge splash and one of the dolphins was bit in half. We steamed over and gaffed the tail and you could see that it was a clean bite straight thru. We didn't see any sharks or whales in the area at the time and from memory it was less than half a mile offshore.

On another occasion, a charter boat skipper out of Mullaghmore ( Brendan Merrifield on the Katie R ) was fishing at the head of Mullagh for Mackerel with a party of Germans, when one of the anglers saw a shark beside the boat. When Brendan saw it, he said that it was right beside him with a very dark back and white underside. He estimated it to be over 10 feet long and 14inches across the back. The shark didn't stay around, it just swam off and was never seen after.

Fri May 11, 2007 9:46 pm

Ok, to sum up what we have so far:
You sure it wasn't a basking shark
Definately not a basking shark, it wasn`t the right shape and the fin was exactly like a white. I have seen quite a few of them before and it didn`t look like them. It was though very wide and deep aswell
Porbeagle...?
Known to be around our shores and one of their favourite prey items are pollock. Very similar shape to a great white. Large black eye etc etc

This was 100% certain not a thresher and 99.9% not a porbeagle, there was no white mark on the dorsal fin at all. Also it would be right at the top end of size for a porbeagle, it was 13-14ft and we both agree that is a very accurate estimate.
The great white will only breach when it has swam up from depth under a prey item
We did not see any prey item or notice any activity in the area it jumped after that had happened
more details... long body or squat body, pointed high dorsal fin, rounded short dorsal fin, rounded high dorsal fin, upper body colour grey, blue etc??
The body was very wide and deep. The dorsal was straight at the front and very slightly concave at the back. The back edge looked as though it had been nibbled, just like this in fact http://www.newenglandsharks.co.....whites.htm and is the photo titled `John Chisholm took the photo below, up close and personal of a white sharks dorsal`
Upper body colour was very dark grey
water temperature
12 C
I personally have learned where fish are concerned never to say never, so many times you hear about a fish being seen or caught even and hear someone say "but they never come here"
Agreed, who would have guessed a tuna would be caught in Newlyn harbour, Cornwall years ago. It only takes one stray fish to get caught and there have been quite a few of them over the years.
i'd be inclined to agree with rock hopper, maybe just maybe it was a great white. when you look at the increasing number of warm water species being caught along the irish and UK coasts in recent years, caused by climate change and all that craic, then maybe just maybe a great white might show up here sooner or later. i'm not saying it was definitely a great white, but when you stand back and think about it, then you can't definitively rule out a great white
Agreed, we have ruled out almost everything except mako and white. Extremely big for a mako, possible though, probably more likely to be a white. In all the photos and pictures (and the youtube video) we have looked at that are of whites are very similar.
Kevin at http://www.kbfishingireland.com/ did say that they occasionally find seal heads and seals with lumps missing out of their bodies on the local beaches. He is away this week
I am hoping he can post his comments here soon, I think he is back on sunday or monday